24 Oct 16
Originally posted by Rank outsiderYour views of evil don't seem to be correct since we do it all the time, nations go to war
Punishing someone for somebody else's actions is immoral.
with nations due to things the leadership of nations do. We will each given an account
of our individual lives yes, but nations rise and fall all the time due to the actions of those
in charge as do households.
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24 Oct 16
5 edits
Intelligent Design as a scientific theory is SATISFIED at the point of acknowledging that some biological systems have a greater probability of being intelligently designed.
ID as a science interprize is not about "Do you like the design?"
And it is not about "If God is good WHY would God design such a design?"
That moves out of the realm of the scientific to the philosophical or theological matter.
ID arrives at its destination and really stops with the recognition of intelligent agency as the more probable source of the designing of biological systems.
The prostate could be the poor design of God.
The prostate could be the good design of God.
The prostate could be the so-so design of super intelligent atheists from planet X.
ID as a scientific enterprise stops at the recognition that the biological organ, whether optimal or sub-optimal, is more probably intelligently designed.
"If God is so good and intelligent, then WHY would God allow the prostate to develop cancer?" moves into a different discipline.
Originally posted by KellyJayI wasn't talking about man's wickedness, I was talking about your God's.
You don't have clue about my beliefs if that is what you think. I do believe man's wickedness
is going to increase, but God will cut it off and end it along with all who do evil.
Your God isn't going to 'end all who do evil'. He is going to keep them alive and roast them in hell for all eternity, for no possible conceivable reason. Along, of course, with billions of people who are not, in any sensible sense of the word, evil.
24 Oct 16
Originally posted by KellyJayI doubt I consider any of the examples you are thinking of as 'punishment'. And even if they are, I expect I think they are immoral.
Your views of evil don't seem to be correct since we do it all the time, nations go to war
with nations due to things the leadership of nations do. We will each given an account
of our individual lives yes, but nations rise and fall all the time due to the actions of those
in charge as do households.
So unless you are prepared to be more explicit, I stand by my statement.
24 Oct 16
Originally posted by Rank outsiderThe thing you are upset about is how God gives us the ability to do the evil we want to and
I wasn't talking about man's wickedness, I was talking about your God's.
Your God isn't going to 'end all who do evil'. He is going to keep them alive and roast them in hell for all eternity, for no possible conceivable reason. Along, of course, with billions of people who are not, in any sensible sense of the word, evil.
does not stop us until He sees fit. The only wicked ones in that conversation is man and
the only one man is harming is man and what man owns and requires, at some point God
stops that. Evil is going to be dealt with eternally, as God sees fit since it is His Kingdom
to do with as He wills not yours I don't see Him working out His will as anything other than
his right.
24 Oct 16
Originally posted by Rank outsiderGod is showing us His Grace and Mercy and His Wrath, you liking it isn't required.
I doubt I consider any of the examples you are thinking of as 'punishment'. And even if they are, I expect I think they are immoral.
So unless you are prepared to be more explicit, I stand by my statement.
Originally posted by KellyJayI think I made it clear that the thing I am upset about is the idea of torturing innocent people for all eternity.
The thing you are upset about is how God gives us the ability to do the evil we want to and
does not stop us until He sees fit. The only wicked ones in that conversation is man and
the only one man is harming is man and what man owns and requires, at some point God
stops that. Evil is going to be dealt with eternally, as God sees fit since it is His King ...[text shortened]... th as He wills not yours I don't see Him working out His will as anything other than
his right.
Imagine you had a child (I don't care whether you do - let's keep this hypothetical) and imagine he/she does not meet the required standards to get into heaven but you do.
Quite why you would want to spend eternity in the knowledge that your own child is being tortured for all eternity, and to spend it praising the being that could put an end to his/her suffering with a click of his finger, is quite beyond me. It is genuinely repugnant.
(Actually, to be honest, I don't think you can explain this either, which is why you fall back on a lot of generic waffle.)
24 Oct 16
Originally posted by Rank outsiderOnly sinners
I think I made it clear that the thing I am upset about is the idea of torturing innocent people for all eternity.
Imagine you had a child (I don't care whether you do - let's keep this hypothetical) and imagine he/she does not meet the required standards to get into heaven but you do.
Quite why you would want to spend eternity in the knowledge ...[text shortened]... don't think you can explain this either, which is why you fall back on a lot of generic waffle.)
Originally posted by sonshipIntelligent Design as a scientific theory is SATISFIED at the point of acknowledging that some biological systems have a greater probability of being intelligently designed.
Intelligent Design as a scientific theory is SATISFIED at the point of acknowledging that some biological systems have a greater probability of being intelligently designed.
ID as a science interprize is not about "Do you like the design?"
And it is not about "If God is good WHY would God design such a design?"
That moves out of the realm of ...[text shortened]... hen WHY would God allow the prostate to develop cancer?" [/i] moves into a different discipline.
Could you name a biological system or two and lay out the math which demonstrates that these biological system's 'have a greater probability of being intelligently designed'?
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Originally posted by KellyJayTake Fred.
Only sinners
Fred, now 87 and on his death bed, has spent his life trying to be the best person he could be. During the war he heroically saved the lives of his battalion and had touched the lives of many people in his long, but difficult life. In his final years he had suffered much, both in his failing health and loss of loved ones. Now Fred wasn't a saint and done wrong things in his life, which included theft as a young man and incidents of adultery. He felt remorse for his wrong doings and tried to make amends the best he could. - Fred spent his life as an atheist, and died the same.
Two questions:
1. Is Fred a sinner?
2. Does Fred deserve to burn in hell for all eternity?
24 Oct 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeDid Fred sin, yes as all have therefore all are guilty. Are some of the all not as bad as others yes, but the best of us are not good enough.
Take Fred.
Fred, now 87 and on his death bed, has spent his life trying to be the best person he could be. During the war he heroically saved the lives of his battalion and had touched the lives of many people in his long, but difficult life. In his final years he had suffered much, both in his failing health and loss of loved ones. Now Fred wasn ...[text shortened]...
Two questions:
1. Is Fred a sinner?
2. Does Fred deserve to burn in hell for all eternity?
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Originally posted by KellyJayThanks. But the second question asked, 'Does Fred deserve to burn in hell for all eternity?'
Did Fred sin, yes as all have therefore all are guilty. Are some of the all not as bad as others yes, but the best of us are not good enough.
Edit: I appreciate question 2 is the harder one to answer.
24 Oct 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeWe are all sinners before a Holy God who is Lord of all creation who does not tolerate evil, there will be an account for every evil deed an word. You will find no one righteous before God who will stand before God righteous in their own right; moreover, scripture declared all who do not believe in Jesus are condemned all ready.
Thanks. But the second question asked, 'Does Fred deserve to burn in hell for all eternity?'
Edit: I appreciate question 2 is the harder one to answer.
Originally posted by sonshipSo your god must like fish more than humans since sharks seldom get cancer and some of them live to be 400 years old. What's wrong with this picture?
Intelligent Design as a scientific theory is SATISFIED at the point of acknowledging that some biological systems have a greater probability of being intelligently designed.
ID as a science interprize is not about "Do you like the design?"
And it is not about "If God is good WHY would God design such a design?"
That moves out of the realm of ...[text shortened]... hen WHY would God allow the prostate to develop cancer?" [/i] moves into a different discipline.
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Originally posted by KellyJaySo atheist war hero Fred is going to hell.
We are all sinners before a Holy God who is Lord of all creation who does not tolerate evil, there will be an account for every evil deed an word. You will find no one righteous before God who will stand before God righteous in their own right; moreover, scripture declared all who do not believe in Jesus are condemned all ready.
Gotcha.