17 Apr 12
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWe all have the Bible and we all agree on what it says. That in itself shows another clue in that the Bible says that a true follower of God and of his son would all be in agreement with his fellow brothers.
Doesn't seem like you are prepared to give a definitive answer, so I won't bother to ask it again.
Let me ask you this instead. If in fact that is how it works, why does the WTS seem to have so much literature that tells its members what the "truth in the Bible" is? Isn't the WTS literature "man's ideas and opinions"? Shouldn't the members instead be given a Bible and told to pray? Shouldn't they all get the same answers?
I asked my mother when she first started studing with the Witnesses when I was very young why she thought this was the "truth" of all the religions out there because I kept hearing her make that comment about the JW's.
She had been raised a Baptist and she said all those years of going to that church and hearing what was preached to her form the stage just didn't make sence with what she could read herself from her Bible.
The trinity, a real burning hell fire and a few other things just weren't in the Bible. Even just the point that they never used God's name, Jehovah, which was in the Bible the Baptist used, was never mentioned.
As far as the liturature that we have, why not have Bible aids to help explain the Bible? First there are thousands of languages we face when we do the door to door work earthwide and the world changes constantly with new and ever increasing problems. So there is nothing wrong with this educational work that is being done.
So yes we all pray constantly for God's direction and yes..we do all get the same answers which would be a direct clue that Jesus said would mark his followers.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by galveston75Seems likely that you "all get the same answers" BECAUSE of the "Bible aids" as well as encourgement to conform. If you believe that the "Bible aids" and the encouragement to conform have no bearing on the answers the members come up with, then simply give them Bibles and tell them to pray.
We all have the Bible and we all agree on what it says. That in itself shows another clue in that the Bible says that a true follower of God and of his son would all be in agreement with his fellow brothers.
I asked my mother when she first started studing with the Witnesses when I was very young why she thought this was the "truth" of all the religion ...[text shortened]... t the same answers which would be a direct clue that Jesus said would mark his followers.
17 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell we agree ( again a sign that Jesus said would be the mark of his TRUE followers ) because we all have a Bible in our hands to study and compair what we read there and in the other printed liturature we have. If I did not agree with what our liturature has in it and it did not agree with the Bible, I would not be a part of this organization.
Seems likely that you "all get the same answers" BECAUSE of the "Bible aids" as well as encourgement to conform. If you believe that the "Bible aids" and the encouragement to conform have no bearing on the answers the members come up with, then simply give them Bibles and tell them to pray.
I have yet to find anything that we now have in print that disagrees with the Bible. If I had I would not be involved with this organization. But all the other religions that I have studied and know what they teach such as the trinity is not even close to the even basic Bible truths.
PS..even if we didn't have the other printed liturature that you seem to question, did not exist, all the JW's would still be in agreement to the letter of the Bible, earthwide.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by galveston75That's an interesting claim. How would this uniformity and consensus come about?
even if we didn't have the other printed liturature that you seem to question, did not exist, all the JW's would still be in agreement to the letter of the Bible, earthwide.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by galveston75Well, whether you a prepared to acknowledge it or not, it seems likely that it is the printed literature that you have that drives the process. It seems likely that you are encouraged to have your conception of the Bible conform to the printed literature, so there's little wonder that they agree. If this were not the case, then all members would simply be given a Bible and told to pray.
Well we agree ( again a sign that Jesus said would be the mark of his TRUE followers ) because we all have a Bible in our hands to study and compair what we read there and in the other printed liturature we have. If I did not agree with what our liturature has in it and it did not agree with the Bible, I would not be a part of this organization.
I have ...[text shortened]... did not exist, all the JW's would still be in agreement to the letter of the Bible, earthwide.
17 Apr 12
I reckon we need to make correct interpretations of the bible as well as all things in life.
I can see a lot of positive things in a lot of religions and also non-religious organizations.
So I take the positive and leave the rest behind.
We can let the bible or others do the thinking for us , but ultimately it is us that needs to make a correct interpretation.
As for the golden rule , it is like other "rules" , they should be more like guidelines, imo.
Man is strict. "God" is flexible.
So sometimes I have felt the need to do something else than doing what I would have done to me.
For example my semi-call for Dasa to be banned. I do not want to be banned myself. But sometimes enough is enough.
Although, as FMF points out, I do not make the decisions to ban people here, and if I did, I prolly wouldn't ban Dasa anyway . Just try to show him that his religion is not so cut and dry as he makes out. As rvsakhadeo points out, Hinduism is flexible, morphing from one thing into another at times.
Those that claim to be Hindus are way more diverse than those that claim to be christians, (in my experience), which is one of the reasons it appeals to me
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneView it as you will....
Well, whether you a prepared to acknowledge it or not, it seems likely that it is the printed literature that you have that drives the process. It seems likely that you are encouraged to have your conception of the Bible conform to the printed literature, so there's little wonder that they agree. If this were not the case, then all members would simply be given a Bible and told to pray.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFBy God showing the truth to ones who are looking for it for the right reasons and to meet the qualifications that God sets out in the Bible.
That's an interesting claim. How would this uniformity and consensus come about?
One qualification is to be sheeplike on many levels. One such thing is to be teachable and take God's direction no matter what that implies even to the point of losing ones life because of lets say, not fighting in wars supported by mans goverments.
Jesus said they would put him to death and so would many of his followers. If one is not able to face that then would he be qualified to follow Jesus's footsteps?
The Bible also says "one would not be a part of this world". What does that mean and to what extent would one not be a part of this world?
Knowing what that means is obviously an important issue or it would not have been said by Jesus about his followers.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by galveston75As I thought, your claim - that without printed guidelines "all JW's in the world would still be in agreement to the letter of the Bible" - is not credible.
By God showing the truth to ones who are looking for it for the right reasons and to meet the qualifications that God sets out in the Bible.
There are hundreds of Christians who believe that "God is showing the truth to them" and who claim they are "looking for it for the right reasons" and "meet the qualifications that God sets out in the Bible". And yet there is not a consensus.
Without your dogmatic and interpretative conformity being directed by a central organisation and hierarchy - which manifests itself in your "printed literature" - Christians of the JW persuasion would be no different: i.e. there would be differences of interpretation.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFYou are more then welcome to believe anything you want. But it is credible as I've been a part of this wonderful brotherhood for more then 50 years.
As I thought, your claim - that without printed guidelines "all JW's in the world would still be in agreement to the letter of the Bible" - is not credible.
There are hundreds of Christians who believe that "God is showing the truth to them" and who claim they are "looking for it for the right reasons" and "meet the qualifications that God sets out in the B ...[text shortened]... persuasion would be no different: i.e. there would be differences of interpretation.
As hard as it is for you to concieve, it is true that such a thing can exist. If it were to never exist then the Bible lies in saying that it would.
I can travel to any country on this planet and walk into the local Kingdom Hall and they will be studying, reading and all agreeing on what is being discussed that day from the Bible as in my Kingdom Hall here in this country. Try that little trick with any other religion in all the countries they might be in.
And whether it lives up to some preconcieved expectation you have about what is exceptable in reguards to printed liturature, it is no concern of mine. God works his will the way he approves to the good of those who use it whether you approve or not. The UNITY we have is explained to be real in every bible on this planet and even yours if you have one.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by galveston75And this would be so even if your organisation didn't distribute the "Bible aids" and other literature that it does?
I can travel to any country on this planet and walk into the local Kingdom Hall and they will be studying, reading and all agreeing on what is being discussed that day from the Bible as in my Kingdom Hall here in this country. Try that little trick with any other religion in all the countries they might be in.
17 Apr 12
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Originally posted by RJHinds“....It is mistranslated and misinterpreted due to man's lack of knowledge AND NOT
It is mistranslated and misinterpreted due to man's lack of knowledge and not
due to any shortcomings of God. It is clear from reading the whole of scripture
that the verse you refer to does not prohibit all types of killings. So we know
that it can not be "thou shall not kill" but must be "thou shall not murder".
due to any shortcomings of God. ...” ( your quote from the first post on this thread + my emphasis )
This is in response to stellspalfie first post where his main point was:
“....surly a being intelligent enough to create the universe would also be able to spread its message in a clear way that can not be corrupted or misinterpreted. ...” ( stellspalfie quote )
Now do you see your contradiction in your quote?
How can you have BOTH “ It is mistranslated and misinterpreted due to man's lack of knowledge” AND an all-knowing all-powerful 'God' with no “shortcomings” be all-powerful and yet this 'God' be so stupid or ignorance as to fail to take INTO FULL ACCOUNT “man's lack of knowledge” so that 'his' message is spread without being corrupted or misinterpreted DESPITE “man's lack of knowledge”?
Or, put more simply:
why did 'God' not simply take into full ACCOUNT man's lack of knowledge so as to make sure 'God's' message is spread without misinterpretation?
-is it because he doesn't have the power to? -if so, then that would logically contradict 'he' being all-powerful.
-is it because he doesn't/didn't know that 'his' message would be misinterpreted? -if so, then that would logically contradict 'he' being all-knowing.
-is it because he doesn't know HOW to take into account man's lack of knowledge so that 'his' message would not be misinterpreted? -if so, then, again, that would logically contradict 'he' being all-knowing.
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17 Apr 12
Originally posted by galveston75im not really accusing the bible of contradicting itself. im thinking about the vagueness of certain passages that seem to lead to much confusion between followers, its clear that this happens just by looking at how much the christian denominations argue between themselves. so what is the purpose of leaving things so open to interpretation?
If one honestly looks thru the Bible and ALWAYS test "scripture with scripture" ( not mans ideas or thoughts or doctrines ) one would begin to see a consistant theme and that the Bible does not contradict itself.
This being said, the confusions always arise when we allow mans ideas to enter into our searching of what a scripture or set of verses or a b ...[text shortened]... most importantly be willing to let go of any man made ideas that do not agree with the Bible.
the line "thou shall not murder" is a good place to start as its so well known. regardless of religion that sentence is incredibly vague, does anybody on this site know exactly what god means? its one of gods main laws so surly its important to know if its bein adhered to correctly.
17 Apr 12
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Originally posted by galveston75Here's an example.
View it as you will....
In the "Why didn't Jesus condemn slavery?" thread you made the following assertion:
"The Bible does not approve of the kind of slavery your probably thinking of...It was only a slavery to repay a debt you could not repay but could be repaid with time and then you were set free. There were many laws set up by God to protect the slaves from any kind of cruelty of anykind."
I assume this is a JW teaching since you said it and RC defended it. If it isn't, then let me know.
Your assertion clearly isn't true as evidenced by the following. Seems extremely doubtful that God would direct anyone into believing something that is false. Therefore, it seems pretty clear that it is the JW literature that drives that belief.
Leviticus 25
44‘As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45‘Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46‘You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.
Clearly slaves can be kept permanently and even be passed down to the slave owner's sons
Exodus 21
20“If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21“If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
Clearly beating a slave is allowed - just not so badly that he doesn't survive a day or two.