Originally posted by galveston75And there's that wonderful circular reasoning again.
I know it disgust you. Only proves to me that ones like you show this is God's organization which the Bible confirms would be "hated by all the nations".
- God says his true church will be hated
- We do bad things to people
- People despise us for doing these things
- Because we are despised, proves we are God's true church
You are such value Galveston75.
Originally posted by galveston75If it is a matter of "personal conscience", then why was beauroberts disfellowshipped?
The subject here is blood transfusions. There is no interpretation on this as the bible says more then once to "abstain from blood."
If one feels they need to ignor this command, that is their decision. But one has to answer to the congregations elder arrangement and depending on the circumstances and the attitude of ones involved, it is the command ...[text shortened]... ld would not exist now.
Listen and obey God's LAWS. Abstain from blood!!
Goodnight......
You can't have it both ways Galveston75, surely there should be some consistency in "God's true church"?
Originally posted by galveston75If it is one of "God's laws" that must be "obeyed", then how can it possibly ever be a "matter of personal conscience"?
Listen and obey God's LAWS. Abstain from blood!!
I don't think your church actually knows where it stands on this; you seem to be lurching from one point of view to another and meanwhile lashing out at those who are confused by your apparent callousness.
Originally posted by galveston75You put "abstain from blood" in quotation marks. But is it a whole sentence? Or is it in fact just a snippet from a whole verse that gives it its context?
There is no interpretation on this as the bible says more then once to "abstain from blood."
Originally posted by FMFI am genuinely confused now. Is Galveston75 saying the receiving of blood in a transfusion is a "law" which must be obeyed, or a guideline that is "a matter or personal conscience"?
You put "abstain from blood" in quotation marks. But is it a whole sentence? Or is it in fact just a snippet from a whole verse that gives it its context?
Originally posted by divegeesterIt seems that the 'no receiving of blood in a transfusion' is a "law" of his organisation which must be obeyed rather than a "law" stated by his God figure. galveston75 chooses to mention something about "one has to answer to the congregations elder" and removing people from his organisation, rather than to explain where there is any "law" in the Bible about not saving people's lives with blood transfusions. Surely he believes that people answer to God? What would be wrong with a "free moral agent" continuing to worship God as a member of his organisation and why would it be any of the "elders'" business, who ~ after all ~ can make no credible case 'banning' blood transfusions, just as galveston75 can't.
I am genuinely confused now. Is Galveston75 saying the receiving of blood in a transfusion is a "law" which must be obeyed, or a guideline that is "a matter or personal conscience"?
Out of respect for the Jehovah Witness organization and their wishes to not hold fellowship with me I shall refrain from conversing with any Witnesses directly. This is meant as a safe guard for you, while I think on the nature of my ways.
Here is my perception of the incident to further add clarity to what we are all talking about.
I love people. As an academic my search for the ultimate truth has always been exhuasting. I have looked under rocks, I have looked in trees. I have spoken to members of different faiths and different cultures. Some have added to my understanding of truth, bringing clarity, and others have taken away...all of which has made me a much stronger person.
All I ever wanted to do was to be a "Powerful Beacon of Christ" a "lighthouse" if you will, charged with bringing truth to people who may not have access to it.
I felt as though this was my calling...not necessarily on the pulpit as an ordained minister (although all Witnesses are ordained ministers) but in the meeting and greeting of every day people, from all walks of life on the streets. I wanted to go into the prisons and have fellowship with those people who may have never heard of the truth. I wanted to go into bars late at night and offer drunks breakfast and perhaps a ride home. I wanted to feed the hungry and offer shelter to the homeless and offer warmth to those who were cold. That is all I ever wanted to do and by and large the Jehovah Witnesses offered me the chance to do that in every shape and form.
Admittedly although I found (in my own reckoning) the most truth in this organizational doctrine, I still found holes of things that did not always ring true to me. Perhaps this made me a cafeteria witness, perhaps I should not have been baptised as a witness before completely believing in every aspect.
I longed for truth. I longed for spiritual companionship. I longed for fellowship. I loved the meetings. I loved the study aspect of it. I loved to sing and I loved to lift up my voice (a joyful noise) to my creator.
I knew without a doubt what The Jehovah Witnesses beliefs were on Blood. There was never any confusion on my part about how they felt and where they stood. The fault was mine in choosing not to believe that particular doctrine.
Do we have the luxury of picking and choosing, who am I to say, but as an academic and one who takes the aquisition of knowledge very seriously, I thought it was my very essence, what I was created for. To seek out and find ultimate truth to better allow me to give glory to my creator.
I had a vesectomy in March of this year to take responsible measure to ensure my wife and I don't have any more children than we can reasonably aford. During this everyday, commonplace, procedure, the surgeon found several masses. He removed them (albeit without my permission) and he diagnosed me with testicular cancer. It was fast moving and progressive and required several surgeries including one surgery in which I lost alot of blood and received six units...
This saved my life. This gave me a chance to maybe share the truth with one more person. This I feel helped to make my light just a little bit brighter.To make sure that this lighthouse could continue to lead lost ships into shore.
The cancer got worse. I got really sick and have been run down almost constantly, between radiation and chemo and chasing after 3 kids (2 under the age of 2). I was part of a kind, loving, gentle group of people once, that shared in fellowship with me. They came over my house and shared a meal with me. They held my children as they were born. They held my hand at my baptism...
I came home from my procedure and I was greeted by 3 elders of the congregation who asked me if I infact had gone through with a transfusion. I said yes and they essentially read me those same passages that were pointed out earier on in the forum. They stated that I was being disfellowshipped. That I was still welcome to come to the meetings but I was expected to sit in the back and not socialize with any other witness.
They counciled my wife and instructed her to not socialize with me and if need be a "safe" place would be provided for her and the children. My wife refused to accept their council and was also disfellowshipped.
In a lot of ways I feel like I have been betrayed.I am still very hurt by it, but I no longer hold any grudges. I still fail to understand why after seeing a really bright flame, a would be beacon for Christ, why would they attempt to put it out.
Beau
Originally posted by beaurobertsI'll tell you I disagree with the Jehovah Witness organization's view on
Out of respect for the Jehovah Witness organization and their wishes to not hold fellowship with me I shall refrain from conversing with any Witnesses directly. This is meant as a safe guard for you, while I think on the nature of my ways.
Here is my perception of the incident to further add clarity to what we are all talking about.
I love people. ...[text shortened]... really bright flame, a would be beacon for Christ, why would they attempt to put it out.
Beau
blood transfusions for a couple of reasons. First being I don't believe there
were blood transfusions taking place during the law, I believe the very
first one was done in the 1600's. God gives us laws for our protection, and
there are several good reasons why that practice if not done properly
cause more harm than good. He forbid certain creatures to eat, I can only
imagine for the same reason, done incorrectly would cause harm.
In scripture even when Jesus healed people He told them to do all the
proper things, example healing a leper He had them show themselves to
the priest to be declared clean. He never asked someone to put their lives
or others in danger to show faith! He went about it in a proper fashion!
I believe abstaining from blood was more to do with food and drink, which
again was for their own good. It is being taken out of context for the
medical practices we have today.
I read your posts and I sort of question you when you say that the Jehovah
Witness organization gave you a chance to do those things you knew to do
such as share Jesus Christ, feed the hungry, and so on. You need someone
to give you permission, or tell you what to do, when you already know
what is right?
I believe you over all, and I suggest you go to God in Jesus name, but do
this instead of looking for a man to tell you what to do, or give you
permission, ask God to have the Holy Spirit lead you where He wants you.
After all the steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord, not any
organization.
Originally posted by beaurobertsThere will be nothing you can say, no matter how heart-rending the details or extenuating the circumstances, that will change the mind of the two regular JWs we have in this forum (robbie carrobie and Galveston75). They are hard-core devotees to the WatchTower organisation, they will never, under any circumstances whatsoever admit they are wrong, mistaken or out of order. To admit error when you proclaim to be the sole holders of God's truth on earth is impossible and doing so would bring the entire edifice of their belief construct crashing down. So don't bother looking for sympathy. Harsh but true.
Out of respect for the Jehovah Witness organization and their wishes to not hold fellowship with me I shall refrain from conversing with any Witnesses directly. This is meant as a safe guard for you, while I think on the nature of my ways.
Here is my perception of the incident to further add clarity to what we are all talking about.
I love people. ...[text shortened]... really bright flame, a would be beacon for Christ, why would they attempt to put it out.
Beau
As you are an academic I would suggest you take a research approach to how religious organisation work, focusing specifically on the cultish ones such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons for examples. There is plenty of material out there here are some reading suggestions:
Chaos of Cults (a study in present day isms) by Jan Karel Van Baalen
An old book but still possible to find on the web, kindle or used.
Apocalypse Delayed: extraordinarily well researched exposition by an ex Jehovah's Witness
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apocalypse-Delayed-Story-Jehovahs-Witnesses/dp/0802079733
Support:
http://www.exjw-reunited.co.uk
A lot of ex JWs become atheists because of their negative experience in the cult; it is worth bearing this in mind when reading the blogs.
I would recommend seeking an independent Christian fellowship who operate with a comfortable "fringe", I.e. Where they will support and encourage but allow you freedom to attend as you please without question.
Originally posted by KellyJayAnd yet you were the Christian arguing a while ago that the JWs parents who were allowing their child to die by denying a blood transfusion and who were overruled by the state, had had their personal freedoms and spiritual consciences before (their version of) God compromised.
I'll tell you I disagree with the Jehovah Witness organization's view on
blood transfusions for a couple of reasons. First being I don't believe there
were blood transfusions taking place during the law, I believe the very
first one was done in the 1600's. God gives us laws for our protection, and
there are several good reasons why that practice if not ...[text shortened]... nts you.
After all the steps of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord, not any
organization.
😕
Beau, your story is truly heart-rending. Thanks for sharing in such detail, we really feel your pain. I read this to my wife and we are both praying that you will find a spiritual home with warm, caring people who follow Christ's command to love one another.
The harshest condemnation that Jesus had was for the Teachers of the Law who "strained at a gnat, but swallowed a camel". This is what is happening here.
Peace, my brother!
Originally posted by FMFThat's good. It's how it should be. We should all let one another walk our own spiritual path.
I am still held fast to my Christian family's ~ and extended family's ~ bosom despite my now non-Christian status. No one I know has tried any psychological abuse to try to force me to 'believe again' or to force me to feign belief for conformity's sake. I am fortunate in every way.
Originally posted by galveston75This seems like too easy an out for my taste. Being 'hated' is easy. The question is, are you being 'hated' for the right reasons?
I know it disgust you. Only proves to me that ones like you show this is God's organization which the Bible confirms would be "hated by all the nations".
Remember - any chucklehead can get to 'hated' simply by acting obnoxious enough.
Originally posted by beaurobertsYou can still follow your passion without the JW organization. There are other groups of Christian people who share your passion for helping the poor and the imprisoned, and who would gladly welcome you to join them.
Out of respect for the Jehovah Witness organization and their wishes to not hold fellowship with me I shall refrain from conversing with any Witnesses directly. This is meant as a safe guard for you, while I think on the nature of my ways.
Here is my perception of the incident to further add clarity to what we are all talking about.
I love people. ...[text shortened]... really bright flame, a would be beacon for Christ, why would they attempt to put it out.
Beau
<soapbox>Be wary of people who expect you to follow the rules for their own sake! Look to the spirit of the rules. Also, be wary of people that expect you to agree with their interpretation of the rules in every detail!</soapbox>
They are not always easy to find, but they are out there, if you keep looking.