Is God more cruel than the worst sadist you know?

Originally posted by CalJust
Actually (and I am not being sarcastic, but quite sincere when I say this) I can feel for you in the mental gymnastics that you need to make, to avoid the logical conclusion that the God you think you believe in, seems to be less "humane", and heroic, and self-sacrificing than our postulated fireman.

Clearly, there are many other scriptures (for goodness ...[text shortened]... ble, would be willing to rescue somebody against his will, why do you deny God that prerogative?

We know the will of God on these matters. We do things according to the will of God, not according to the will of man.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Since the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting torment for the Devil (Satan), the beast, the false prophet and all the demon angels, then it stands to reason that it is also a place of everlasting torment for those humans resurrected to have their part in the Lake of Fire.

[b]"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worsh ...[text shortened]... ay into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal"

(Matthew 25:41-46).[/b]

Its all about what the Bible says clearly.

While you are entitled to reason and deduce and assume and extrapolate all you like, those things do not necessarily lead to correct doctrine.

Originally posted by RJHinds
We know the will of God on these matters. We do things according to the will of God, not according to the will of man.

What on earth does that mean? How is this relevant to this discussion??🙄

Getting you to stick to a point is like pulling teeth!

Do you understand this simple sequence:

1. You say (rightly) that a human fireman can and should save somebody even against their will.
2. But God is either unwilling or unable to do so.
3. So the God you believe in is less humane and/or loving than a mortal fireman.

Which part of this is not clear?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Maximum human effort within the context of a burning building at some measure of risk to the first responder or fireman; cooperation of the victim is required. Same would hold with a boat capsizing or a weak swimmer in over his or her head at high tide in the Atlantic Ocean.

So basically not a good analogy unless you say God too has his limits?

Freaky's more than capable of communicating his thoughts and inimitable insights without third party intervention.
You misunderstood me. I did not ask you for Freakys thoughts, I asked you for your thoughts (and by way of conversation asked if they matched what Freaky said he thought).

Sometimes people behave strangely when faced with dire straits: some freeze; some faint; some behave irrationally, screaming obscenities at those trying to assist them; some blame them for letting the disaster happen.
So is it not expected of the fireman to assume the person is behaving irrationally and attempt to save him despite his apparent lack of acceptance of assistance?

Originally posted by Great King Rat
If it were your grandchild at risk and it would start to behave irrationally and would yell obscenities at you, would you cease the rescue operation because of this?

"it would" genderless? ".... start to behave irrationally and would yell obscenities at you..."? All six of my dear grandchildren (Eric's two boys and one girl; Heidi's two boys and one girl) are well mannered and respectful of authority. If any of these children were in imminent danger requiring a professional rescue operation they'd remain calm and be obedient to the directions they were given. If present at the rescue, I'd pray fervently for their deliverance and stay the hell out of the way. Any unilateral request for cessation of rescue efforts would come [and it's highly doubtful that it would] from their parents.

Originally posted by CalJust
This post is in response to recent posts in various threads referring to salvation and eternal damnation, e.g. In Revelations 20.

Consider the worst murderers you know: Manson, Jack the Ripper, Hitler.

OK, let's take Hitler. He killed 6 million people. Let's say he tortured those 6million and then burned them in gas ovens. Now multiply that by a thous ...[text shortened]... ee if there maybe something really abhorrent about that idea, which demands another explanation.

The common mistake is that people think it is God who sends people to hell. And that hell is something God made. Scripture states, God is love! Perfect love. The fullness of love. And where love is there can not be sin. (this is why purgatory is sooo necessary).

Being in the presence of God, in our sinful state. We cannot remain in His presence. Like opposite magnets.

We are created as eternal beings, "in the image of God".

It is we, who remove ourselves from God's Eternal Love. It is we who make our own damnation.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"it would" genderless? ".... start to behave irrationally and would yell obscenities at you..."? All six of my dear grandchildren (Eric's two boys and one girl; Heidi's two boys and one girl) are well mannered and respectful of authority. If any of these children were in imminent danger requiring a professional rescue operation they'd remain calm and be ...[text shortened]... sation of rescue efforts would come [and it's highly doubtful that it would] from their parents.

FFS it's a hypothetical question, just answer it!

The parents are out. You are the only one there apart from the kids. The children are behaving out-of character and are not being 'well mannered and respectful of authority'. And the authority they are not being respectful of is yours since, as I said, you are the only other person there.

What... would... you... do?

Penguin

Originally posted by twhitehead
So basically not a good analogy unless you say God too has his limits?

[b]Freaky's more than capable of communicating his thoughts and inimitable insights without third party intervention.
You misunderstood me. I did not ask you for Freakys thoughts, I asked you for your thoughts (and by way of conversation asked if they matched what Freaky said h ...[text shortened]... ving irrationally and attempt to save him despite his apparent lack of acceptance of assistance?[/b]

Firemen are trained to follow established protocols; they do so and often lose their own lives in the process.

Originally posted by Penguin
FFS it's a hypothetical question, just answer it!

The parents are out. You are the only one there apart from the kids. The children are behaving out-of character and are not being 'well mannered and respectful of authority'. And the authority they are not being respectful of is yours since, as I said, you are the only other person there.

What... would... you... do?

Penguin

"FFS"? "If present at the rescue, I'd pray fervently for their deliverance and stay the hell out of the way."

Originally posted by RJHinds
We know the will of God on these matters. We do things according to the will of God, not according to the will of man.

God never made robots. He made man to have reason, curiosity, and a desire to explore. He wants us to grow and expand our minds. He welcomes free thinking people, who have respect. I know he likes healthy debates. And if your reasons are sound in an argument, he will listen. Just look at Abraham and the story of Sodom and G.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"FFS"? "If present at the rescue, I'd pray fervently for their deliverance and stay the hell out of the way."

Pffffffff......... again, it is a HYPOTHETICAL question. Why are you being so difficult about this?????

Pretend you are the only one present to help. Any help (either professional or non-professional) is going to come too late.

Your grandchildren's lifes are in your hands. They need to jump (you know this), but they don't believe you. You can't convince them otherwise. Do you help them by force or do you accept their refusal and let them die?

Please, GB, you are perfectly capable of answering this question. No need not to answer it.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"it would" genderless? ".... start to behave irrationally and would yell obscenities at you..."? All six of my dear grandchildren (Eric's two boys and one girl; Heidi's two boys and one girl) are well mannered and respectful of authority. If any of these children were in imminent danger requiring a professional rescue operation they'd remain calm and be ...[text shortened]... sation of rescue efforts would come [and it's highly doubtful that it would] from their parents.

As I said before - I can feel for you as you squirm and try to make fun of the simple statements which leave your picture of God in an untenable position.

The scenario sketched needs your response, not your biographical details.

But, you have my sympathies. I was in your position for the most part of my Christian experience, and it is highly uncomfortable.

Take the plunge - jettison your defamatory concept of God and his wrath!

Originally posted by CalJust
Can either GB or RJH answer the simple question whether a fireman or lifeguard is right in saving somebody from death against their will?

Try to avoid quoting scriptures or religiosity - from a simply human point of view, is the fireman to be praised or reprimanded?

Can i jump in here? Firemen and lifeguards typically have a higher value on life. That is when others are fleeing for their lives, firemen are rushing in. Certainly, there are some who do it for the job or own personal glory. But many firemen, humbly desire to serve their fellow human being, without the praise.

Lifeguards, also, as in the Coast Guard. Those guys are crazy, yet thank God they are there.

Do they have the right to save someone against their will? Certainly. It is in their nature to save others.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"FFS"? "If present at the rescue, I'd pray fervently for their deliverance and stay the hell out of the way."

Still avoiding the issue, because the inevitable conclusion is so unpalatable.

Oh well, just goes to show again that it is futile to expect closed minds to think rationally...

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Can i jump in here? Firemen and lifeguards typically have a higher value on life. That is when others are fleeing for their lives, firemen are rushing in. Certainly, there are some who do it for the job or own personal glory. But many firemen, humbly desire to serve their fellow human being, without the praise.

Lifeguards, also, as in the Coast Guard. Th ...[text shortened]... e the right to save someone against their will? Certainly. It is in their nature to save others.

Well put.

So maybe you will be able to venture an opinion whether God (who has arguably the highest value on life) is able to "rush in" and save somebody - even if they are struggling and resisting the offered salvation?

This is the simple scenario which both GB and RJH are doing all in their power to avoid facing, with red herrings galore!