Originally posted by LemonJelloA couple of points:
i see what you are saying.
but how do you know that adam and eve could have NOT eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? after all, the bible repeatedly seems to say that man, by his very nature, cannot help but commit sins ...[text shortened]...
i still don't think the passage implies that free will exists.
1. Could you provide references for:
(a) The Bible saying man's nature is sinful
(b) The Bible saying that it is not possible for man to follow God's instructions perfectly because of his sinful nature?
2. All the above references would refer to the post-Fall nature of man. Pre-Fall, one can cite a number of references to indicate that Man's nature was not predisposed to sin - Gen 1:27. Also C.f. Rm 2:12-21 and 3:23.
3. Man can choose not to sin, though it will be difficult: C.f. 1 Jn 2:1. This would necessitate free will.
Originally posted by LemonJelloIf you donot mind I would like to continue to work our way through THE WORD OF GOD.
blindfaith,
i have read the passage several times, and i still don't think it demonstrates explicitly that we have free will.
however, i understand your position and i would say that it is a reasonable interpretation, but by no me ...[text shortened]... m the bible that you think speak about the existence of free will?
And they heard the voice of The Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. GENESIS 1:8-10
When Adam heard God coming, he hid. Why? He knew that he was in trouble for disobeying God? Why did he not hold his ground? He made a discission, he made a choice. Sure he was tempted, but noone forced him to eat the fruit. He had the free choice to walk away. Even though his wife disobeyed he still had the free choice, to obey God. He chose to disobey. And he did so freely.
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou was naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee That thou shouldest not eat? The man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. GENESIS 1:10-12
Man again had the free choice to be honest about his mistake. But he lied and put it all on the woman. God had made man to be a leader, yet he could not own up to what he had done. But he done so freely. Noone forced him to lie. He had the free choice to tell the truth.
But he was now in sin, and he now had to obey God's Law of sin. So man used his free choice to go into the world of sin.He now had to live in the world of the knowledge of good and evil. A world he cannot get out of. No matter what he does he now freely lives in the world of sin.
Originally posted by ivanhoebtw
We can all see how frogstomp has learned a lot from No1. The same accusing degrading insulting and arrogant debating style.
this is the post
Originally posted by blindfaith101
Which means that you really HAVE no reason, for how you believe.I do have a reason.
and my reply:
Yes your reason is idiocy.
and you haven't a clue what I believe.
Get this in your head bf: Christians don't have to cling to Sumerian mythology. If you understood the word of the Kingdom you wouldn't be looking so dumb in here day after day.
Originally posted by frogstompI think everyone is bored of you references to "the word of the Kingdom" since no one seems interested in taking your bait. I think you should start a new thread and prove me wrong.
Get this in your head bf: Christians don't have to cling to Sumerian mythology. If you understood the word of the Kingdom you wouldn't be looking so dumb in here day after day.
I think everyone will continue to ignore your baseless taunts and assertions. However, if you can come up with something interesting which has some kind of sound support, someone may respond to it. It may just be a wolf party, but at least someone will talk to you.
Otherwise, all I can say about the "word of the Kingdom" of frogstomp is...Zzzzzzzzz 😴😴😴
Originally posted by ColettiI really think thats the problem too, they are "bored with the sord of the Kingdom" that's probably why they wont ever be Christians too.
I think everyone is bored of you references to "the word of the Kingdom" since no one seems interested in taking your bait. I think you should start a new thread and prove me wrong.
I think everyone will continue to ignore your baseless taunts and assertions. However, if you can come up with something interesting which has some kind of sound ...[text shortened]... Otherwise, all I can say about the "word of the Kingdom" of frogstomp is...Zzzzzzzzz 😴😴😴
But if they insist on pretending to be Christians and are in fact Paulines, I will continue to remind them of the word.
Originally posted by frogstomp😴😴😴
I really think thats the problem too, they are "bored with the sord of the Kingdom" that's probably why they wont ever be Christians too.
But if they insist on pretending to be Christians and are in fact Paulines, I will continue to remind them of the word.
Originally posted by telerionOk, Tel;
[b]So you've made up this question to prove that God, who can't be real, did or did not create anything? Or are you proving that nothing is real? Or that thinking clearly is not worth the trouble it takes?
I'm not proving anything. I'm asking you two questions, and then seeing if your responses are sensible or if they imply a contradiction. I ...[text shortened]... 's love has nothing to do with recalcitrance. It has everything to do with self-honesty.
[/b]
You're asking questions to see if the answers are sensible. Fair enough, but what sensible premise are you comparing the answers to? It seems that if you're laying out bait to find Christians who claim that God created reality, then you're just busy playing with words and wasting time (your own and that of others). What good is it to claim that God did or did not create reality? As a doctrine, it is nothing to die for. Especially when whatever argument you bring is simply a semantic game.
I am sad to think of you as having stepped away from God, after being so close! I'd like to understand how that happened. Obviously, coming from my position, a mistake was made in the process. Something in your original faith was never properly established in the first place, or some deceitful view overwhelmed you. I do not think atheists are dishonest. But I do think they are deceived. My next thought is that I care about people; And the next thought is to exercise that care by trying to correct the deception.
Sounds arrogant? Well I readily admit that I am convinced of what I am convinced of, just like everybody here (except for the few actual seekers who aren't settled yet).
Of course non-believers don't find my faith very convincing. I didn't either....until I did! So I hold out hope for all who are still breathing, and I do what I can to convince.
Let me apologize Telerion, if I came across judgementally in my last post. I don't meant to do that. At the same time, I know what I believe, and I believe what I know, so my position is absolute. We all have 'once to die, and then the judgement'. So, it is in God's love that I approach these discussions; hoping to draw some into a serious, personal look at the claims of Christ.
You're asking questions to see if the answers are sensible. Fair enough, but what sensible premise are you comparing the answers to?
Logic, as best as I can employ it, although yousrr (sp) has given me something to mull over for a while.
It seems that if you're laying out bait to find Christians who claim that God created reality, then you're just busy playing with words and wasting time (your own and that of others).
Yep. I thought that these questions would give some xtians pause before claiming the three following things: God is real, God created everything that is real, and God did not create himself. I don't think it's semantics. I stated what I meant by reality before any xtians answered. After they affirmed the three claims above, I tried to demonstrate why the three cannot all be true.
As far as wasting time, I encourage you to allow me to choose how to allocate my leisure time. When I consider what I am doing with my life, I think that I am making a pretty good go of it. I'm working hard, stretching my mind, hopefully doing my part to contribute back to knowledge, and building a happy family.
What good is it to claim that God did or did not create reality? As a doctrine, it is nothing to die for. Especially when whatever argument you bring is simply a semantic game.
It's not a semantic game. It seems I hear banter to no end around here about God creating reality. Why don't you ask some of your brethren? Anyway, who said anything about dying for it? I'm not facing a cross or a stoning or something.
I am sad to think of you as having stepped away from God, after being so close! I'd like to understand how that happened. Obviously, coming from my position, a mistake was made in the process. Something in your original faith was never properly established in the first place, or some deceitful view overwhelmed you. I do not think atheists are dishonest. But I do think they are deceived. My next thought is that I care about people; And the next thought is to exercise that care by trying to correct the deception.
I appreciate and empathize with your concern. One of these times I'll get into my deconversion, but I'm afraid with insensitive zealots like Darfius, BF, and dj2 lurking about, it won't amount to much. Don't throw pearls before swine it is written.
I used to feel the same way you do about those that turned from God. Maybe they had a bad relationship with their earthly father or they were in rebellion against God's laws or they never believed in the first place. All I can say, having come out of that belief, is that I was wrong.
You have given the story from your perspective so I will share mine. Imagine a cult member who, after living for many years under a strong delusion, emerges from the paralyzing system and deconverts. Her former bethren speak all the same doubts that I listed above or many others doubts besides to explain to themselves how some one could cast aside the truth; but she cannot submit herself again to that falsehood for she sees it for what it is.
You think that I'm deceived. I think that you are deceived. I don't know upon what grounds you believe me to be deceived, but my belief rests upon having been there. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe one of your reasons is the truth. Frankly, I strongly doubt it. If you wish to correct the deception, I must warn you that it will be no small undertaking. You see it's like that cult member. As she began to question the system she had a few stumbling blocks to her faith, but when she had finally completed the long and arduous deconversion process, she had accumulated so many objections that they connected and the entire system appeared to collaspe from every side! It took me about 5 years to completely deconvert, and it will take me much longer to move back.
Sounds arrogant? Well I readily admit that I am convinced of what I am convinced of, just like everybody here (except for the few actual seekers who aren't settled yet).
No. It doesn't sound arrogant. I know where you're coming from. I would take issue with saying that I'm as convinced as you. I hold pretty strong views on some matters, but if your faith is anything like mine was, "convinced" means something much stronger. Having been mistaken in the past many times, I am hesitant to adopt such certitude. All I ask is that you really question. Ask yourself, "Could I be that cult member, thinking that everyone else is deceived, when if only I really questioned, I would discover that I was duped all along?" I give this question thought all the time. That is why my beliefs about the universe are changing. You may not see it much here, but they do.
Of course non-believers don't find my faith very convincing. I didn't either....until I did! So I hold out hope for all who are still breathing, and I do what I can to convince.
You are a converted atheist then? Or perhaps you grew up thinking of God but never dedicated your life to him until later? Maybe I will reconvert. I honestly don't see it happening though.
Let me apologize Telerion, if I came across judgementally in my last post. I don't meant to do that. At the same time, I know what I believe, and I believe what I know, so my position is absolute. We all have 'once to die, and then the judgement'. So, it is in God's love that I approach these discussions; hoping to draw some into a serious, personal look at the claims of Christ.
No need to apologize. I appreciate your attitude, and I hope that it can persevere the frustration that many xtians get here. Darfius for example started out fairly considerate, but look what happened to him. You will certainly have more success in your mission if you can avoid that sort of bitter attitude. My hope for you is that you will have the courage to always question your absolutes.
Sincerely.