08 Oct 13
Originally posted by MISTER CHESSYes the second death is just being dead with no chance of a resurrection ever...
That is the second death.
That is the lake of fire that is made for Satan's followers.
This passage in context would show you that everybody had lived for a thousand years and then satan was released again. Then those who succumbed to his temptations after his release and followed him were thrown into the lake of fire.
08 Oct 13
Is Jesus enough! That is a loaded statement, one that bears a little thought. First, to answer the statement, "YES", definately! But what exactly is Jesus. Much more than what we see. God is!!!! faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love. Faith without love is a gong clanging in the wind.
08 Oct 13
Originally posted by PudgenikGood point. Sadly, there are many gongs clanging in the wind around here.
Is Jesus enough! That is a loaded statement, one that bears a little thought. First, to answer the statement, "YES", definately! But what exactly is Jesus. Much more than what we see. God is!!!! faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love. Faith without love is a gong clanging in the wind.
08 Oct 13
3 edits
Originally posted by sonshipNo he is not but not that it matters, why dont you try to address his texts on their own merit rather than trying to find a pretext not to? Do we ask if you are a student of Calvin, Luther? No, why not? because we are prepared to evaluate your texts on their own merit.
A simple question: Are you, Rajk999, a Jehovah's Witness ?
Are you a student of Watchtower Bible Society teachers ?
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08 Oct 13
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie, you answered for Rajk999. I would like him to answer for himself. Maybe he got expelled from the JWs? I knew someone like that.
No he is not but not that it matters, why dont you try to address his texts on their own merit rather than trying to find a pretext not to? Do we ask if you are a student of Calvin, Luther? No, why not? because we are prepared to evaluate your texts on their own merit.
It does matter.
I have addressed many of his points directly. You should know that.
Now I asked a question. It is fair that the same kind of question be asked of me. No problem, Robbie.
1.) Am I a student of Calvin ?
On some things.
2.) Am I a student of Luther ?
On some things.
Does that answer your question directly ?
Unless Rajk999 answers my question to him/her, I am getting a kind of picture that maybe a dis-fellowshipped Jehovah's Witness is behind this poster's diatribes.
If I am wrong let Rajk999 say so.
08 Oct 13
Originally posted by sonshipIm pretty sure I mentioned to you already that I have a firm DONT ASK DONT TELL policy. You are free to tell the internet who you are and what you do etc. I dont enquire about those things neither do I answer questions along those lines.
A simple question: Are you, Rajk999, a Jehovah's Witness ?
Are you a student of Watchtower Bible Society teachers ?
So far you have dealt with nothing I addressed. I dont care what religion you belong to since that would not make your answers any more correct or believable.
Your biggest failure [actually it has to be a graave sin] is that you teach that to love God is not a requirement for eternal life in Gods Kingdom.
So you can hate God and hate your fellowman, sin all your life, and still end up in Gods Kingdom according Jaywill/Sonship's Satanic doctrine.
I dont care to discuss anything further with you so dont embarras yourself by asking me more personal questions.
08 Oct 13
Originally posted by sonshipHe is a man like any other Jaywill, is that not enough?
Robbie, you answered for Rajk999. I would like him to answer for himself. Maybe he got expelled from the JWs? I knew someone like that.
It does matter.
I have addressed many of his points directly. You should know that.
Now I asked a question. It is fair that the same kind of question be asked of me. No problem, Robbie.
1.) Am I a student o ...[text shortened]... ipped Jehovah's Witness is behind this poster's diatribes.
If I am wrong let Rajk999 say so.
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Im pretty sure I mentioned to you already that I have a firm DONT ASK DONT TELL policy.
If I recall rightly you did point out that I am influenced by the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Am I correct ?
I think I recall you mixing up the names - something like "Watchman Lee".
I have no problem admitting that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are two Christian workers who have been very influential to my Christian and church life.
I don't mind admitting this. Your policy seems to apply only selectively to YOURSELF. And I don't see why you cannot simply say YES or NO. If I engage you I STILL will deal with your ARGUMENTS as I have been doing.
You are free to tell the internet who you are and what you do etc.
Above I mentioned personal things because YOU have thought to make an issue of the name of a teacher who I have learned much from. I feel quite fortunate to have sat under the ministry of these brothers.
YOU made an issue of it buddy! And I do recall you using the "cult" word.
So let's not be hypocritical here.
I dont enquire about those things neither do I answer questions along those lines.
Now I am going to have to be rather rude. I think you are a liar on this point.
Did I or did I not read posts in which you informed the Forum that I am associated with a group on which some Internet writers have attached the charge of "cult" ? Did I read posts from your hand with those informative charges or not in the last six months ?
So far you have dealt with nothing I addressed.
That is a delusional statement for which there is no excuse.
The Jehovah's Witnesses do have some sense of ethical behavior. And I have known them to kick people out of fellowship because of low level of morality.
I am getting an impression that maybe you once were one of their members and am now kind of a closet X- Russellite - a pro crypto or secretive Jehovah's Witness.
I am dealing with you directly on this because it was YOU who took the initiative to draw attention to the Forum that I have learned from a man or two who have negative things written about them.
I dont care what religion you belong to since that would not make your answers any more correct or believable.
If I did not deal DIRECTLY with your teachings then I would take this little lecture and change my approach.
Since I am interested in dealing DIRECTLY with your statements and do try to fairly represent what they are, this exhortation is wasted on me. And again, YOU ... YOU took the lead to draw attention in the Forum that I was associated with "Watchman Lee" [sic]. And your scrambling of the name incorrectly suggested that you are only superficially knowledgeable about the contraversies.
I fellowship with the local churches. I have been helped by many books published by Living Stream Ministry. And I have linked to posters, on occasion, without shame, to these entities.
And I will not take a back seat to anyone suggesting that I do not deal with teachings rather than cast stone against who one may meet with.
I quote what you wrote. Then I commence to explain the problems with it from a biblical perspective.
Your biggest failure [actually it has to be a graave sin] is that you teach that to love God is not a requirement for eternal life in Gods Kingdom.
That is really a twisting of what I taught. Eternal life is received by BELIEVING. The Gospel of John clearly teaches that.
Once you get clear on that, and I don't think you will, we can go on to discuss in exceedingly fine detail the importance of love, repentance, obedience, righteousness (subjectively and dispositionally).
One problem is that you do not have the attention span or the capacity to deal with one issue before giving attention to another.
I have been very eager to discuss the daily living which is overcoming in the Christian life as opposed to being defeated. But not before I get you clear that -
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast." (Eph. 2:7,8)
If I could get you clear on that I would be overjoyed to be able to go ON to discuss the next aspect of the Christian life in the next verse -
"For we are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand in order that we would walk in them." (v.10)
I don't think I can get you clear though. I hope some reading along may be helped. You are like a kid with a toy. You have a little training and you think it tells you everything.
But for the record I totally reject every attempt you make to paint "Justification by Faith" as a license to live a sloppy backslidden spiritual life bringing disrepute to the name of Christ.
Your accusation is a false one. I think you make it because it makes you feel morally superior. This is your rational to fight against Justification by Faith - a self righteousness that only YOU are a good follower of Christ.
The essence of the kingdom living is to be strict towards one's self and be merciful towards others. Do you have it the other way around?
Strict towards OTHERS - merciful towards YOURSELF.
I doubt that you have the attention span to even finish reading my posts.
So you can hate God and hate your fellowman, sin all your life, and still end up in Gods Kingdom according Jaywill/Sonship's Satanic doctrine.
You ask questions. But you really do not want me to reply carefully and in detail and fairly to your question.
Every attempt to twist my presentation of Justification by Faith for eternal life as encouragement to live sinfully after receiving Christ is nothing but your slander.
It is exactly the same slanderous accusation the ancient Judaizers made against Paul - "Let us do evil that good may come."
So if you wish to accuse me of cult association yet not devulge your own main source of learning, you're a hypocrite.
I dont care to discuss anything further with you so dont embarras yourself by asking me more personal questions.
I am not embarrassed except for YOU. Since when did you really "discuss" things within your diatribes ?
08 Oct 13
Originally posted by sonshipSonship, i read your arguement with Rajk999. i'm sure you mean well, but you fail on a couple of points. First, "Eternal life is recieved by believing". Well think about this, are you stating that Eternal life with God or i think you were trying to mean being in heavin with God is recieved by believing. If that is true, then Satan and all his buddies will be there too. I guarentee they certainly believe that Jesus is Lord. If you've delt with the spiritual, you would know this.Im pretty sure I mentioned to you already that I have a firm DONT ASK DONT TELL policy.
If I recall rightly you did point out that I am influenced by the teachings of Watchman [b] Nee and Witness Lee. Am I correct ?
I think I recall you mixing up the names - something like "Watchman Lee".
I have no problem admitting ...[text shortened]... t embarrassed except for YOU. Since when did you really "discuss" things within your diatribes ?[/b]
Secound, it is impossible to enter heaven by faith alone. Notice i say, enter heaven. Yes, you are justified by faith alone, but now there is a final ingredient. LOVE. The one thing Satan rejected. God-Love!!! Faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind. read Paul's writtings. Faith hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.
08 Oct 13
Originally posted by PudgenikGreat post with a couple ideas that did not cross my mind. Nice to know that there another follower of Christ around.
Sonship, i read your arguement with Rajk999. i'm sure you mean well, but you fail on a couple of points. First, "Eternal life is recieved by believing". Well think about this, are you stating that Eternal life with God or i think you were trying to mean being in heavin with God is recieved by believing. If that is true, then Satan and all his buddies will b ...[text shortened]... ging in the wind. read Paul's writtings. Faith hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.
Be warned, the majority of these guys around here believe that they are saved eternally by just accepting Christ with their mouth. All their sin is cancelled by Christ and they dont have to account for sin. They can sin all they like and they will still get eternal life in Gods Kingdom.
I have been around here for 9 yrs off an on telling these people that the love and charity which Christ and the Apostles spoke so much of cannot be ignored .. maybe now I can take a rest and play some chess.
Nice to have you around Pudgenik 🙂
09 Oct 13
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999But sonship is not one of those, because he says you must also believe in your heart.
Great post with a couple ideas that did not cross my mind. Nice to know that there another follower of Christ around.
Be warned, the majority of these guys around here believe that they are saved eternally by just accepting Christ with their mouth. All their sin is cancelled by Christ and they dont have to account for sin. They can sin all they like and t ...[text shortened]... ored .. maybe now I can take a rest and play some chess.
Nice to have you around Pudgenik 🙂
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
(Romans 10:8-9 NASB)
The Instructor
09 Oct 13
Originally posted by RJHindsYes, I have seen Sonship write wonderfull pieces, full of passion, inspiring to be honest. As i have also seen good strong arguements from both you, RJHinds, Rajk999 and others. Something that i personally rellish. This is good, and something that God rejoices in. Sounds odd, but it is true. What, you think that we have come together, here on this medium by random chance? After tonight, it may be awhile before i type again. But i have enjoyed this. Peace my brothers
But sonship is not one of those, because he says you must also believe in your heart.
[b]But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
(Romans 10:8-9 NASB)
The Instructor[/b]
09 Oct 13
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Every sin needs to be dealt with, so let me ask you Rajk999 have you
Great post with a couple ideas that did not cross my mind. Nice to know that there another follower of Christ around.
Be warned, the majority of these guys around here believe that they are saved eternally by just accepting Christ with their mouth. All their sin is cancelled by Christ and they dont have to account for sin. They can sin all they like and t ...[text shortened]... ored .. maybe now I can take a rest and play some chess.
Nice to have you around Pudgenik 🙂
sinned or fallen short since you first believed? You a sinless person since
you first believed?
I can tell you I still go to God through Jesus Christ for forgiveness because
I need to. I strive to serve God, it is my desire to follow Him doing the
things He wants for me to do for His name sake. I rely on Jesus and only Jesus'
grace and mercy for my forgiveness, I do not want rely on any good work
I do, or worry about any bad thing I have done due to God's grace, so my
life good or bad I rely on Jesus not me for my salvation.
Kelly
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09 Oct 13
2 edits
Pugnik,
Sonship, i read your arguement with Rajk999. i'm sure you mean well, but you fail on a couple of points.
Maybe I did. But maybe because the writing was not more exhaustive you misunderstand something which I could elaborate on.
First, "Eternal life is recieved by believing". Well think about this, are you stating that Eternal life with God or i think you were trying to mean being in heaven with God is received by believing.
This is your first misconception. I said nothing about heaven. I said nothing about "being" anywhere.
It is the Gospel of John which probably speaks the most about how men receive eternal life. And John stresses that it is by believing into Christ. The last portion of his Gospel is a good sample -
" ... these things have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." (John 20:31) .
Isn't it wonderful? Many verses in the Gospel of John tells us that we receive eternal life by believing in Christ - even believing INTO Christ the living and available Son of God.
If that is true, then Satan and all his buddies will be there too.
Obviously "believe in Christ" means to receive Christ. Satan and the opposition party Satan leads definitely never did or have or will receive Christ. They may have the information ABOUT Christ.
Here John equates believing and receiving -
" But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name ..." (John 1:12)
The believing that John is speaking of is receiving. And this is the receiving of a living Person, an available Person, a Person not dead and not non-existent but alive, resurrected and available today.
The believing INTO Christ in John is RECEIVING Christ and being BORN of God deep in the nucleus of our spiritual being -
" ... as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who BELIEVE into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (vs.12,13)
John is speaking of a believing that is receiving a living Person and because of that being BEGOTTEN by God to be "organically" a part of God's divine family as His children.
I am quite aware that James says that the demons believe there is God and tremble (James 2:19). We are not talking about the chances to be saved which have long come and long gone for Satan, his angels and his demons.
The New Testament is aimed at the believing HUMAN BEINGS.
I guarantee they certainly believe that Jesus is Lord.
Where can you show me any demon or fallen angel confessing Jesus is Lord ? I don't think you can find that anywhere in the Bible.
You do have evil spirits saying that they knew Jesus was the Son of God. Matthew 8:28 - "And behold they (the demons) cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God ? Have You come here before the time to torment us?"
To receive Jesus as Lord is opposite of saying "What have we to do with You, Son of God ...?"
To time of reconciliation to God of these beings, these demons, seems to have come and gone forever. They have nothing to look forward to except to be tormented by the Son of God.
Your caution that I may be mixing up these demons or Satan and his angels with "as many as received Him ... to those who believe into His name" is not necessary. I am not confused. I just did not elaborate on this until now.
So eternal life is STILL obtained by those believing into Christ. And that is receiving the Son of God as the Lord.
If you've dealt with the spiritual, you would know this.
Since the day I was born again I have dealt with the spiritual.
You should have known that I was speaking about the believing of those human beings rather than Satan and his angels and demons. Come on.
Second, it is impossible to enter heaven by faith alone.
I never mentioned "enter heaven". Please do not put words into my mouth.
You have brought up the matter of heaven, going there, entering there.
Man believes into Jesus Christ and receives eternal life -
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes into Him would not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16).
I brought out the fact before that John from start to finish does not mention repentance as a requirement to receive eternal life.
If YOU or someone else jumps to the conclusion that I mean repentance is not vital to the normal life of a disciple of Jesus, that is you jumping to that conclusion falsely. What I am saying is that the Gospel of John's believing into Christ, ie. believing into His name IS really the fundamental turning of the mind, turning of the heart in repentance.
John only speaks of believing in His Gospel as a requirement to receive Jesus Christ. And life is in Him, in His name.
If you JUMP to the conclusion that I am saying "Just believe and you are saved. DO NOTHING ELSE" that is your false assumption. I am saying that we receive the gift of eternal life through faith plus nothing.
NOW - to be fair, ONCE we have received this GIFT the New Testament does indeed speak of eternal life as something to enter into and lay hold of. And it may seem to some that this mean salvation by works. However this divine life must spread out from the kernel of man's being to influence his character and soul. Then the life recieved begins to be manifested in the WALK.
And this is a life long process of divine life growing and spreading outward into the personality.
But the requirement to be BORN of this life is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God - a believing that receives Him as our Lord.
Notice i say, enter heaven. Yes, you are justified by faith alone, but now there is a final ingredient.
You mentioned "enter heaven". I have not talked about where to GO because it doesn't matter where a man goes primarily.
The primary matter is the Lord Jesus GOING into us "organically" as a living Person. God dispenses His life into us at regeneration.
I do not say there is no heaven. I do not say that Christians may not temporarily enter heaven, ie. the first rapture. I say the New Testament is not primarily about GOING to heaven. It is about God dispensing His eternal life and divine nature INTO His redeemed people.
Then He must grow and spread this SEED of eternal life to saturate firstly our soul and lastly our body. Where we "go" is quite secondary.
LOVE. The one thing Satan rejected. God-Love!!! Faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind. read Paul's writtings. Faith hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.
I am quite aware of First Corinthians 13. But you see you do not seem to understand that my thread debating Rajk999 was on the requirement to receive eternal life.
As long as people come after me and say - "Love is important, Praise is important, Generosity is important, Mercy and Kindness and giving alms and ethical behavior are important. And this and that is also important ... all these things the Bible mentions are also important !" they are missing the issue addressed here.
I am talking about the requirement to receive eternal life and the impossibility of being UN-BORN once a man is BORN of God.
I have written many many posts on other important aspects of the Christian life.