Originally posted by Rajk999SIN WILFULLY seems to be the key words here. What if the sin is not done wilfully?
I cant believe you still asking that as this is what has been discussed over and over in the last few days. Anyway here it is again:
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of ...[text shortened]... have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)
The Instructor
Originally posted by KellyJayIm surprised that you do not know the reason for all the argument.
Well I wasn't sure how you stood on that. so we agree that it is possible
to sin and be forgiven. I'm not sure why there are so many arguments
over this. If they sin they go to God for forgiveness and repent, if they get
entangled and overcome its over for them.
Kelly
Here it is. Sonship is saying that those who accept Christ with their mouth etc, cannot ever under any circumstances lose their salvation. They are saved eternally regardless of sins. God cannot revoke their salvation. Worse is that many like yourself seem to support his view.
Here Paul is saying that it is possible for some to accept Christ and eventually lose their salvation.
I never suggested that God does not forgive repentant sinners. Its just that some will cross some invisible line and that will be the end of them becuase God clearly would not tolerate continuous willful sin.
Originally posted by PudgenikI would agree. But more importantly, how are you in a position to know who sins after baptism?
I am in a position, a handfull do not sin after baptism.
But all is not lost either. Repentence. Read Jonah. He KNEW God, before God spoke to him. Just because you didn't read that in the bible, doesn't mean he had no relationship before the story opens. He must have, how else would he recognize God when God spoke to him. God specifically told Jonah to do ...[text shortened]... e the way inwhich used him as a vessel. But as the scripture states, one must be a fool for God.
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Originally posted by PudgenikWrong, period. He does not lose his salvation.
The scripture you quote is in reguards to those who on one hand confess that Jesus is Lord, then turn to pride, taking/coviting and all the things God hates. Example, a preacher, does great preaching for years. Then grows in his pride, thinking he can do anything. This person is in danger. Unless he confesses, and in action, changes his ways. Come judgement, God will say, "away from me, I never knew you"
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/hebrews_1026.htm
Originally posted by checkbaiterI admire your courage pal.
Wrong, period. He does not lose his salvation.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/hebrews_1026.htm
Its a brave soul that dares to tell God what He can or cannot do.
They say Fools dare where angels fear to tread ..
I dont think there is an angel that would make the kind of statements some of you people make here on this forum. And you make it in support of your favourite doctrine or pastor or teacher.
Why not just say let God or Christ decide who is getting eternal life and who is not. I cannot see any reason for making a hard and fast rule along those lines. Is there some benefit to you for claiming that you know for sure that of the hundreds of millions born again Christians you know for sure that they ALL are getting eternal life? It just seems so foolish.
Originally posted by Rajk999There are to many warnings in scripture about that to blow that off as
Im surprised that you do not know the reason for all the argument.
Here it is. Sonship is saying that those who accept Christ with their mouth etc, cannot ever under any circumstances lose their salvation. They are saved eternally regardless of sins. God cannot revoke their salvation. Worse is that many like yourself seem to support his view.
Here Paul ...[text shortened]... and that will be the end of them becuase God clearly would not tolerate continuous willful sin.
not true. I believe with all my heart we need to press forward with God,
but it is God's grace not my works that cleans me from my sin. You
get to the point where you no longer go to God for forgiveness, because
you love your sin, you've made a choice and it isn't a good one. I do
believe you can struggle through life fighting the good fight and will win
through Jesus Christ, that is different than one who leaves.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayKellyJay, I enjoy reading most of your posts as you write from you heart and you seem very sincere but you need to try to write a little plainer so that people can understand your meaning.
There are to many warnings in scripture about that to blow that off as
not true. I believe with all my heart we need to press forward with God,
but it is God's grace not my works that cleans me from my sin. You
get to the point where you no longer go to God for forgiveness, because
you love your sin, you've made a choice and it isn't a good one. I do
b ...[text shortened]... the good fight and will win
through Jesus Christ, that is different than one who leaves.
Kelly
Are you saying that you do not side with Jaywill/Sonship's view which states basically that : " eternal life is certain for all born again Christians, and that God cannot revoke it?"
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Originally posted by Rajk999We are greater than angels, you are the one who misrepresents God. You are still living in the Old Testament like Jesus never died for your sins.
I admire your courage pal.
Its a brave soul that dares to tell God what He can or cannot do.
They say Fools dare where angels fear to tread ..
I dont think there is an angel that would make the kind of statements some of you people make here on this forum. And you make it in support of your favourite doctrine or pastor or teacher.
Why not ...[text shortened]... Christians you know for sure that they ALL are getting eternal life? It just seems so foolish.
You have no clue of who it is that resides inside a real Christian.
Originally posted by checkbaiterRight now? No, you are not greater than angels. When Christ returns, maybe. Im not misrepresenting God at all. Your interpretation of Pauls writings is off. The entire Bible is about one single story and that is the triumph of good over evil or love v selfishness or God/Christ v Satan/Devil/Sin.
We are greater than angels, you are the one who misrepresents God. You are still living in the Old Testament like Jesus never died for your sins.
You have no clue of who it is that resides inside a real Christian.
God and Christ has a low tolerance for sin from those who claim to believe. There is repentance and forgiveness yes but for what sins [all sins are not equal] and how many .. I have no clue. For my own self I rather err on the side of caution rather than throw myself on the floor boasting that Im a sinner etc etc as some do. I rather just keep away from sin as best I can with the will God granted me.
Actually Yes I have a clue that Christ resides inside a real Christian. The part you left out is that if Christ dwells within a Christian that person does not sin. So if you do sin then Christ is not within you.
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Originally posted by Rajk999I don't know what kind of church you attend if any, but it is a very strange doctrine you follow.
Right now? No, you are not greater than angels. When Christ returns, maybe. Im not misrepresenting God at all. Your interpretation of Pauls writings is off. The entire Bible is about one single story and that is the triumph of good over evil or love v selfishness or God/Christ v Satan/Devil/Sin.
God and Christ has a low tolerance for sin from those who c ...[text shortened]... lls within a Christian that person does not sin. So if you do sin then Christ is not within you.
Originally posted by checkbaiterI am not connected to any church. I attend several in my area.
I don't know what kind of church you attend if any, but it is a very strange doctrine you follow.
Edit: Just adding that I give priority to the teachings of Christ. Paul and the Apostles take second place. So in connection with this discussion Christ said:
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32 KJV)
Christ accepts as his disciples those who continue in his word.
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"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6)
Another reason to reject Rajk999ism:
The Bible promises that God has begun a good work in the Christian AND "WILL COMPLETE IT." Rajk999ism argues that God may have begun but in most cases will not complete what He has started. Because God doesn't complete what He started a lot of Christians will perish forever, having lost eternal life.
But the word of God says "God ... will complete" the work He has started in every believer in Christ.
1.) WHEN He will complete it may be according to HIS time table and not ours. We may slow Him down and cause Him some trouble. But He will complete the work.
2.) He will complete the work "until the day of Christ Jesus" . There is no reason to think "the day of Christ Jesus" has to be one 24 hour day. Indications are that the day of Christ Jesus is a general term encompassing an age.
3.) If God does not complete the work when He should have completed it with our cooperation, He will still complete the work on us in a disciplinary way.
And the period of time in which God could complete the work in every believer in a disciplinary way is during the age of the reward [or loss of reward] in the millennial kingdom of a thousand years.
After that age all the work on the Christians has to be completed because there are no more tears of sorrow or negative feelings in the age of the new heaven and new earth for eternity.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth ..." AFTER the thousand year millennium (Rev. 21:1).
"And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and deathg will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away." (v.4)
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Allow me to boast a little to show a little of what is in a Christian... and glorify our Awesome God....
Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
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I am at peace with God, I don't worry about him being mad at me...
Rom 3:21-22
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
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I have the righteousness of God Himself!
Rom 4:5-6
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
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1 Cor 1:30-31
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption — 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
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I am Redeemed! I am Sanctified (set apart)!
Heb 13:5-6
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." 6 So we may boldly say:
So much for condemning me He promises to never leave me, nor forsake me!
Col 2:13-15
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. NKJV
It is already done, the price has been paid!
Col 3:3-4
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
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More promises!
Col 1:27
To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
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That's who is in me! Christ in me!
Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
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He says I am justified!(just if I had never sinned)
Rom 8:31-39
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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So much for God condemning his children! Are you bringing a charge to God' Children?
Are you going to separate me from the love of God?
Christians walk around like they are defeated sinners! We are more than Conquerors through him who loved us! Try believing what God has promised and start living like a son of God! Jesus promised a more abundant life, not a whimpering Christian with doubt of eternal life always hanging over his head. We are saved now! Eternal life starts now!
Originally posted by Rajk999Luke 6
KellyJay, I enjoy reading most of your posts as you write from you heart and you seem very sincere but you need to try to write a little plainer so that people can understand your meaning.
Are you saying that you do not side with Jaywill/Sonship's view which states basically that : " eternal life is certain for all born again Christians, and that God cannot revoke it?"
43 “A good tree doesn’t produce rotten fruit, and a rotten tree doesn’t produce good fruit. 44 Each tree is known by its fruit. You don’t pick figs from thorny plants or grapes from a thornbush. 45 Good people do the good that is in them. But evil people do the evil that is in them. The things people say come from inside them.
46 “Why do you call me Lord but don’t do what I tell you?
47 “I will show you what everyone who comes to me, hears what I say, and obeys it is like. 48 He is like a person who dug down to bedrock to lay the foundation of his home. When a flood came, the floodwaters pushed against that house. But the house couldn’t be washed away because it had a good foundation. 49 The person who hears what I say but doesn’t obey it is like someone who built a house on the ground without any foundation. The floodwaters pushed against it, and that house quickly collapsed and was destroyed.”
The person that hears what He says but doesn't obey, well what happens?
There are warnings in scripture such as the one you quoted where people
get entangled and overcome in their sins. This is for those that reject the
Lord that have called Him Lord, and we know that not everyone who call
Jesus Lord has made Jesus Lord.
Paul in his writings also give warnings even in the promises.
Colossians 1: 21 And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works,
22 yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.
We are called to continue in the faith, to be grounded and stedfast, and
NOT moved away from the hope of the gospel. I suggest that lets us know
that people can move away from the hope of the gospel. We need to be
moving towards God pressing forward to Him, pressing forward obeying
God. To fall into the trap of moving away from the hope and into sin is
something we need to avoid, it is a matter of following Christ, to NOT obey
Christ puts us at risk.
No one is in danger of losing out with God that is following the Lord, but if
you reject God what have you no hope is there for them.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayA Christian who is born again cannot get "unborn again".
Luke 6
43 “A good tree doesn’t produce rotten fruit, and a rotten tree doesn’t produce good fruit. 44 Each tree is known by its fruit. You don’t pick figs from thorny plants or grapes from a thornbush. 45 Good people do the good that is in them. But evil people do the evil that is in them. The things people say come from inside them.
46 “Why do you ca ...[text shortened]... at is following the Lord, but if
you reject God what have you no hope is there for them.
Kelly
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
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Rom 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
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2 Tim 2:13
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
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