14 Jul 08
Originally posted by TheSkipperI found it very interesting.
[b I sure hope this is reasonably interesting to people because if it isn’t it’s about 10 minutes they aren’t ever getting back…sorry so long.[/b]
What do you beleive now?
Why a Rabbi and not a Christian leader?
What were your experiences before? Where they, for example from the Holy Spirit, like pictures or speaking in tougues or some such?
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by TheSkipperinteresting to say the least. I'm not sure I'm capable of properly responding to your post, other than to say that no matter how much study we do, we can never comprehend fully , with our limited brains, the being called God. I'm sorry you didn't find the answers you were looking for with all your efforts.
{quote}
No, you can understand the Bible, given sufficient study, without believing it. What faith can afford you is the means of demonstrating that God's kingdom is real.
{end quote}
This is interesting because I was a Christian for most of my life (I “accepted” Christ as a kid through my Mother’s gentle coaxing, but did not begin to truly feel t ...[text shortened]... o people because if it isn’t it’s about 10 minutes they aren’t ever getting back…sorry so long.[/b]
Best Wishes,
Dave
14 Jul 08
Originally posted by TheSkipperDefinitely interesting. Good read. 🙂
{quote}
No, you can understand the Bible, given sufficient study, without believing it. What faith can afford you is the means of demonstrating that God's kingdom is real.
{end quote}
This is interesting because I was a Christian for most of my life (I “accepted” Christ as a kid through my Mother’s gentle coaxing, but did not begin to truly feel t ...[text shortened]... o people because if it isn’t it’s about 10 minutes they aren’t ever getting back…sorry so long.[/b]
14 Jul 08
6 edits
Originally posted by TheSkipperI don't question your sincerity or the amount of in depth study which you've devoted to the Bible.
{quote}
No, you can understand the Bible, given sufficient study, without believing it. What faith can afford you is the means of demonstrating that God's kingdom is real.
{end quote}
This is interesting because I was a Christian for most of my life (I “accepted” Christ as a kid through my Mother’s gentle coaxing, but did not begin to truly feel t ...[text shortened]... o people because if it isn’t it’s about 10 minutes they aren’t ever getting back…sorry so long.[/b]
As for myself, I wasn't raised a Christian at all. My mother was a hippie/former Catholic who raised my brother and I to believe whatever we liked. I grew up free from any formal indoctrination to any religion and developed a deep connection with Nature as my spiritual outlet (a connection which I still cultivate to this day). For as long as I can remember I held a deep-seated hatred for Christians and Christianity. After spending the majority of my life as an atheist, at some point I began to suspect that there might be more to life than I was aware; something I did not want to miss out on, if it truly existed. It might've been a reading of Ralph Waldo Emerson which set me off? At any rate, I began searching. Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, transcendentalism, Islam, LSD, gurus, U. G. Krishnamurti, Meher Baba, New Age philosophy, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Satanism, etc., etc., all of which I delved into at one point or another. But I still harbored a strong resistance to Christianity. It was that resistance which began to pique my curiosity. I reluctantly began looking into the Bible. I refused to read anything but the words of Christ (the ones in red). Honestly, everything he said I found too foreign to process effectively; I couldn't bring anything from my own experience in order to decipher what he was going on about. It wasn't until about five years later that I began to understand where my resistance to Christ was really coming from - his invitation to come and die. About eight years ago Christ's invitation became disturbingly real to me. Other belief systems stressed a sloughing off of illusion, of dying and being reborn, enlightenment, etc., but none of them ever elicited in me a genuine sense of really giving up my life like Jesus did - there was always a selfish motive left in tact; no real sacrifice. (Those who see all religions as legitimate ways to God may question my devotion to the others or any potential bias, but regardless that was my experience.) Anyway, that resistance to Christ's teaching continued up until the moment I finally "took up my cross and died", and flared up in a big way right before I entered that "Life" which Jesus said awaited me. Self-pity, self-hatred, self-love, fear, doubt, etc., manifested in really naked and ugly ways before the end. The process was difficult to say the least.
The problem of evil never bothered me. It might be because I'd already accepted that life was harsh and that Nature didn't have a conscience. Also, whether or not God was good in the way I perceived goodness never entered my mind at any point. All I was concerned about was whether the Life which Christ talked about was genuinely there or not. The life I've lived since surrendering myself to God has only confirmed the truth of Christ's words to me.
That's my story.
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by TheSkipperWell I guess this is where you fell off the wagon my friend. So do you have the same issues when studying the words of Christ? Are his teachings logically backward and intellectually dishonest? If so, which ones? All I can say is that for myself, I can relate to the what Christ's disciples said to him after he had delivered some hard teachings that caused many to turn away from him Christ then asked them if they would turn away as well and they replied, "To whom shall we go, for you have the words of life." In short, I find it interesting that Epi came to the faith soley based upon the words of Christ as where you dumped it all for "Theodicy".
My study of the Word eventually led me to Theodicy, and after experiencing the backward logic and intellectual dishonesty rampant in the field, and still lacking an acceptable level of confidence in the Bible, I abandoned my faith. I wrote off the feelings and experiences that I had had which made God real to me as wishful thinking, and I moved on…I have never been happier.
As for myself, I grew up around the faith just like yourself. However, there came a point where I had to decide for myself and I chose Christ. I will say that there have been times in my life when my faith has been shaken. Like you at times I was faced with certain religious dogma that simply did not add up. In fact, I was told I must either accept such dogma or reject God. Well, needless to say I decided to reject their dogma rather than God. I knew that I did not have all the answers, but what floors me to this day is that I almost believed that they did. LOL.
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by TheSkipperYou wasted years of your life for nothing...
{quote}
No, you can understand the Bible, given sufficient study, without believing it. What faith can afford you is the means of demonstrating that God's kingdom is real.
{end quote}
This is interesting because I was a Christian for most of my life (I “accepted” Christ as a kid through my Mother’s gentle coaxing, but did not begin to truly feel t ...[text shortened]... o people because if it isn’t it’s about 10 minutes they aren’t ever getting back…sorry so long.[/b]
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by RedrushI wouldn't say that. There's nothing more worthwhile than pursuing answers.
You wasted years of your life for nothing...
Especially if that pursuit will help confirm or deny your entire belief system.
Then I'd say it's not only worthwhile, but crucial to your well being, whatever
answers you may find.
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by TheSkipperI found this very interesting actually. I think God would not condemn you at all. I actually think he would applaud your honesty and genuineness. I reckon he's got an awful lot of time for people who walk away for genuine reasons and who are courageous enough to make hard decisions.
{quote}
No, you can understand the Bible, given sufficient study, without believing it. What faith can afford you is the means of demonstrating that God's kingdom is real.
{end quote}
This is interesting because I was a Christian for most of my life (I “accepted” Christ as a kid through my Mother’s gentle coaxing, but did not begin to truly feel t ...[text shortened]... o people because if it isn’t it’s about 10 minutes they aren’t ever getting back…sorry so long.[/b]
I have two questions though.
1) Did you ever really know anything of the loving God who is unconditionally accepting rather than judgemental?
2) What expereinces did you write off?
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by yo its meThanks for reading it, and for the response.
I found it very interesting.
What do you beleive now?
Why a Rabbi and not a Christian leader?
What were your experiences before? Where they, for example from the Holy Spirit, like pictures or speaking in tougues or some such?
What do I believe now? Well, one of the very refreshing things about being an atheist after so many years of carrying around the Christian dogma (I know that word seems to have taken on some negative connotations - I don't intend them here) is that as far as any "afterlife" is concerned one need not believe anything or worry about it at all.
I try to live a moral life, while I may not have found all the truth in the Christian religion that apologists insist I should that is not to say there is not some truth. Treating people as I want to be treated...that sort of thing. However, once I'm dead...I'm worm food.
I have spoken with many Christian leaders, of course, I mentioned the Rabbi because he was the most open to the discussion, and as I said engaged me in the best conversation I have ever had.
I was raised in a conservative Baptist church, no speaking in tongues or dancing in the aisles. Lots of prayer, fellowship and Baptists tend to promote a fairly intellectual faith (to the extent that even makes sense) and the church I grew up in is no different. The very best part about all of it were the potlucks!!
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by duecerNo need to be sorry, mate. I may not have found the answers I was looking/hoping for, but I did ultimately find peace. The search made me a better person, and while it would have been nice to recognize this fact *during* the search rather than after the fact I'm glad I went through it.
interesting to say the least. I'm not sure I'm capable of properly responding to your post, other than to say that no matter how much study we do, we can never comprehend fully , with our limited brains, the being called God. I'm sorry you didn't find the answers you were looking for with all your efforts.
Best Wishes,
Dave
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasHmmm...Fascinating. It seems we just switched places. I started out a Christian and eventually convinced myself I was wrong, you started out secular and eventually convinced yourself you were wrong (or, at least, missing something).
I don't question your sincerity or the amount of in depth study which you've devoted to the Bible.
As for myself, I wasn't raised a Christian at all. My mother was a hippie/former Catholic who raised my brother and I to believe whatever we liked. I grew up free from any formal indoctrination to any religion and developed a deep connection with Nature ...[text shortened]... o God has only confirmed the truth of Christ's words to me.
That's my story.
So, what are we to make of this? We have both experienced some level of life, approached it honestly and with an open heart and clear conscience and wound up in opposite places.
Why did God basically pluck you (perhaps kicking and screaming) from your secular life, but not even answer the door while I knocked incessantly?
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by whodeyNo, Jesus’ teachings are not backward or dishonest so far as I can tell, and I see no reason to dismiss them whether I'm a theist or an atheist. However, just because the "Golden Rule" (and Jesus was hardly the first person to express it BTW) is a pretty neat way to look at life does not speak to the validity of a whole host of other claims made in the Bible.
Well I guess this is where you fell off the wagon my friend. So do you have the same issues when studying the words of Christ? Are his teachings logically backward and intellectually dishonest? If so, which ones? All I can say is that for myself, I can relate to the what Christ's disciples said to him after he had delivered some hard teachings that caused ...[text shortened]... the answers, but what floors me to this day is that I almost believed that they did. LOL.
It does not follow logically that just because he taught some poignant things while alive that he therefore must be a savior, the son of God, and capable of surviving death.
Further, I did not "dump it all for Theodicy". Theodicy was the final straw, and one of the most fundamentally flawed aspects of your religion. Had I not found a whole host of other internal inconsistencies, leaps of logic, dubious translations, dishonesty in the formation of the canon, I would have been happy to simply ignore the questions raised by Theodicy.
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by RedrushNo, I don't believe that. I had the opportunity to meet some true giants of the faith; men and women of irreproachable character, bottomless intellect and unending patience. I would be a better person simply for knowing them even if there was nothing worthwhile in the Bible...which of course there is, so I win on both counts.
You wasted years of your life for nothing...
15 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterThank you, your words mean a lot.
I found this very interesting actually. I think God would not condemn you at all. I actually think he would applaud your honesty and genuineness. I reckon he's got an awful lot of time for people who walk away for genuine reasons and who are courageous enough to make hard decisions.
I have two questions though.
1) Did you ever really know anythin ...[text shortened]... unconditionally accepting rather than judgemental?
2) What expereinces did you write off?
Yes, I believe I did get to experience an aspect of what I thought was God that was "unconditionally accepting". You have to understand that I now believe that all those aspects of God that made him real to me at the time were figments of my imagination or tangible manifestations of wishful thinking. In any case, I was years into my study of the Bible before I came to realize that if the Bible were to be believed God is very judgmental and at least by human standards wildly unfair. Until then God, to me, was an incredibly loving/accepting figure whom I could (and did) trust with my life.
The experiences I have written off are fairly personal, but I will share a few generalities. There were a number of occasions when praying that I could literally feel a presence near me that remained unexplained by any of my physical senses. Once, while worshiping with a small group of friends I was overcome by such a sense of giddiness and complete inner peace that I can only assume it was like being high...but better. I thought I heard God speak to me once, but I had a hard time believing it then...even more so now.
For the record, I do not now think that I did not have these experiences or that I had imagined them. I simply think their source is my own consciousness and not God's.