Originally posted by ahosyneyYes and no.
Can I ask you a question!!!
Is Jesus GOD the father?
The Father and the Son are distinct. They are not separated.
Each lives in the other mutually. This is called co-inherance.
The three "Persons" of the Trinity are distinct but not separate.
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Are you implying that God almighty runs on some kind of fuel? 'Cause I haven't heard of a single power plant yet that didn't require fuel?
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When I wrote this, you may recall that I said that no analogy was perfect. Go back and read the post and notice that I warned the reader of the imperfection of this or any analogy to perfectly represent the truth of the Trinity.
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Jokes aside,
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Yea, Let's try that.
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you didn't answer my question. Why would God go through
all this trouble just to convey a simple message to human kind? Isn't it,
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I think you are thinking "the message" as just being some kind of information.
Listen. And listen well - THE MESSAGE IS HIMSELF.
He is trying to convey Himself into man. The incarnation, life, redemptive death, resurrection, and the coming of the life givng Holy Spirit is not for you to have a religion. It is even more not for you simply to have some information about God.
He went through this to impart God Himself into you so that you could live God - live through God - live in union with God. That is that God may live in you and you in God in a mutual and mingled way.
It is a matter of God despensing His life into man.
www.godseconomy.org
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honestly, more likely that Jesus is not God at all, but a human who
thought he had contact with God?
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By saying that Jesus is God the Bible is NOT saying that Jesus is not also a man.
Jesus is the mingling of God and man. To mingle two or more things together is to combine them so that each remains distinguishable in the combination.
When we say, along with the Bible, that the Son is God, we do not mean that the Son is not also a man.
Most people who believe in God believe that God and man should have SOME kind of friendly relationship. The problem is that they vastly underestimate how close the relationship is meant to be.
God intends to live in man and to have man live in union and co-mingling with Himself. The incorporation of the Divine with the human is universally realized in the Person of Jesus Christ.
He is God-Man. He came to produce many brothers that would be where He is. Consider His own words on this
"And the glory which You [Father] have given to Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one ..." (John 17:22,23a)
Notice His great petition to His Father:
"Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they ALSO [my emphasis] may be where I am, that they may behold My glory which you have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)
You should understand that the "place" in which Jesus prays His followers would be with Him is a Person. The place is in God the Father. His prayer is that those saved by Him would arrive at that same living Place of union and mingling with God. That is where He is.
And before His incarnation, even before the creation of the universe (the foundation of the world) the Father loved the divine Son. Now the incarnated Son petitions the Father that those saved through Him would enter into that same united and blended relationship.
This is so that the invisible Divine Being could manifest Himself in man. The manifestation of God is glory here.
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And I simply love the example you pull out of your hat in another post, about how if you deny Jesus Christ you are an Anti-Christ.
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That was the Apostle John's word that the one who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist. In that letter he says that there are many antichrists.
There is of course one final historidal Antichrist to come. In a sense the one who denies the Father and the Son is the stooge of the coming Antichrist. Unless he or she repents he or she will also share in the eternal torment of that coming Antichrist. So it is no joke. It is serious to teach and proclaim that Jesus is not the Christ or to teach against the Father and the Son.
If you do not distance yourself from this denial and confess Jesus as Lord you will suffer eternal damnation. You will go with your leader the Beast, Satan's Antichrist.
The destiny of your leader will be your co-destiny. However, if you confess Jesus as Lord you will enjoy the co-destiny of Jesus your Lord and Savior.
You did say joking aside. Right?
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While perfectly true of course, the meaning of Anti-Christ here is someone in support of some ridiculous demon living in dungeons with fires and torture all over the place. Beautiful. Cover all angles so to speak.
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Joking aside. If you reject to confess Jesus as Lord you will suffer eternal retribution.
You do not know when your last opportunity to do so will come. You are not assured that you will have more and more opportunity. So it is a matter that you should give attention to immediately.
Believing in Christ you were judged already on His cross at Cavary 2000 years or so ago. That was the judgment on your behalf for your sins.
If you reject the Savior Jesus you will go with your leader Satan to his eternal perdition. You will go along to share the destiny of which ever leader you decide to follow.
Christ comes to you in the light " Follow Me ". Satan operates in the darkness. You follow him without even really knowing it. That is until someone points out to you the way of salvation as I hope I have.
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Either
you're with us, or you're the most despicable form of human there can
ever be. When those scripts were written they knew what they were
doing, and when the bible was assembled?..
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YOu have to decide. Out of the love of God I warn you of the salvation of the gift of righteuosness and Christ.
IF I am telling you the truth I am the best friend you have right now in the whole world. Because I am telling you the truth I am your friend. Jesus loves you.
You have to decide. But the question is not that jaywill becomes an issue. Jesus Christ is the one who needs to become an issue for you.
I am not trying to make myself the issue of importance. I am trying to show you the importance of Christ.
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The hard part is convincing people that the bible is in fact the truth.
Historically, this was done through force and punishments, but how on
earth can it be done now I wonder?
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"People" cannot make the decision for YOU as to what YOU will do with Jesus. YOU have that decision between you and Jesus - between YOU and GOD.
I suggest that you read three chapters each day of either John or Luke. I suggest that you read it aloud. But if not, I suggest what seems to jump off of the page to speak to you in a personal way, you stop and immediately PRAY about it.
Calling Jesus "LORD" is extremly effective in touching the reality of God.
Prayer is just talking to God in an honest way. Just remember that God is holy and don't play. But an honest and open hearted prayter God is alwways eager to attend to.
I think you should take your problems of belief directly to the Lord Jesus in an honest and open hearted way, speaking to God as best you can.
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No I think God's gonna have to step down on earth and show us his
powers, and maybe then I'll believe this stuff. Then again, I'll probably just take him for an advanced alien lifeform, but if he's good to us I might let it pass. Yep, I'm big that way.
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Everything you have done is on record. EVERYTHING. Every word of what you spoke. All of what you have done. God forgets nothing.
You need to be saved. Not the other guy - YOU. The power is in God's ability to totally wipe out your real record of sins through the redemptive death of Jesus on your behalf.
Know that if you perish it is because you refused the GIFT of redemption and eternal life.
I think you should receive the GIFT of Jesus Christ. I think you should see to that first and patiently work together with God through your other problems.
It is your sins that make God not real to you. The finished work of Christ at Calvary deals with the problem of your sins. Tend to that matter real soon friend.
Agape,
jaywill
Originally posted by jaywillThe word antichrist appears 5 times in the Bible, all of which are in the epistle of John and the meaning of the word is clearly defined:
Rajk999,
You ask for a reference which says that denying Jesus His place in the Godhead is a doctrine of demons?
Let's see what we can do for you. Maybe we can get pretty close if not right on.
[b]" Who is the liar if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
Everyon with by repentence and confession of Christ and His right place in the Godhead.[/b]
1JO 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that ANTICHRIST shall come, even now are there many ANTICHRISTs; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1JO 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is ANTICHRIST, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1JO 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of ANTICHRIST, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2JO 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an ANTICHRIST.
Fortunately John was clear on the meaning of 'antichrist' ... in 2 John 1:7 in bold above. Its those who dont confess that Christ ... CHRIST (Not God) has come in the flesh.
All Christians know that Christ has come in the flesh. All Christians dont believe in your Triune or Trinity doctrine. God is the Father. Christ is the son of God. End of story.
Calling other Christians who dont believe your fabricated doctrines demons or devils show how much you really understand the teachings of Christ.
As for your quote from Revelation :
"And I saw out of the mouth of the dragon [Satan] and out of the mouth of the beast [the Antichrist] and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs; For they are spirits of demons ..." (Rev. 16:13,14a)
Whats translation are you using that calls the beast, the antichrist? Did you just make that up to link up the John and Revelation passages? How ingenious.
Originally posted by jaywill😴
[b]============================
Are you implying that God almighty runs on some kind of fuel? 'Cause I haven't heard of a single power plant yet that didn't require fuel?
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When I wrote this, you may recall that I said that no analogy was perfect. Go back and read the post and notice that I warned the reader of ...[text shortened]... ins. Tend to that matter real soon friend.
Agape,
jaywill[/b]
I'm sorry? What was that in the middle? I don't think you have any
sense of humour. Further, I don't believe that the bible is for real. I
think it's a tool put together by men, for men about a man (I see
nothing Godlike in Jesus, I'm sorry) for the single purpose of uniting
mankind around one religion. Now, as noble a thought as that is, the
very same unity can be used by ambitious people to exercise control.
And when that happens, bad things happen (whether supported or not in
the words of Jesus).
That's what I believe. May God record this and strike me down with his
might if I'm wrong.
Nothing. Maybe he's just hiding in the body of a simple man, eh?
😴
Raj99,
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The word antichrist appears 5 times in the Bible, all of which are in the epistle of John and the meaning of the word is clearly defined:
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I am looking for you to say something which I have not already said. At first glance it seems that some of this is just repetition of what I aready briefly elaborated on. But let's see.
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1JO 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that ANTICHRIST shall come, even now are there many ANTICHRISTs; whereby we know that it is the last time.
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All this says is that they were expecting Antichrist to come and that already there were in the world many such ones who could be called antichrist.
So far NOTHING here contradicts what I wrote.
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1JO 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is ANTICHRIST, that denieth the Father and the Son.
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This is just re-quoting I already quoted. Nothing in your reference to 2:22 refutes in any way what I wrote. Nor does it really add any additional understanding.
What else do you have for me?
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1JO 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of ANTICHRIST, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
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I did not, I think, refer to this passage. But you have for me. Your reference here confirms what I wrote. In no way does it contradict what I wrote.
But let's go on to see your concluding point.
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2JO 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an ANTICHRIST.
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So there are many such antichrists who deny that Jesus is the Christ and deny the Father and the Son.
This additional reference confirms rather than contradicts anything I wrote.
I suppose that your main erroneous point will be that nothing in these passages denies that Jesus is God incarnate. Let's see where you're going.
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Fortunately John was clear on the meaning of 'antichrist' ... in 2 John 1:7 in bold above. Its those who dont confess that Christ ... CHRIST (Not God) has come in the flesh.
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Wrong.
To deny that Jesus is the Christ is to deny the Father and the Son.
As I said before the Father and the Son in Isaiah's prophecy, among other places, are both God.
"For a child is born to us ..." A child is a human being.
"A Son is given to us ..." The special child is also a Son given.
"And the government is upon His shoiulder ..." That surely indicates a particular assignment, a particular position of authority bestowed divinely upon this "child" Who is also a "Son".
This is a messianic passage and therefore refers to the Christ of God.
"And His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor ..." Anything described as PELEH or Wonderful in the Old Testment means not easy to understand or beyond our powers to fully comprehend.
"And His name shall be called ... Mighty God" The child is God. There is only one Mighty God in the Bible - Jehovah God. So this human child shall be called the unique one and only Mighty God.
Your argument against the incarnation is demolished right here at this point. But there is more.
"His name shall be called ... Eternal Father"
There are two tracks in this prophecy:
1.) The human child is called the Mighty God. This is Wonderful for how can a created human child be the Creating Mighty God? It is indeed PELEH or Wonderful.
2.) The Son given is called the Eternal Father. This too is too Wonderful for how can a Son be the Father?
But if He is called that it must be because He IS that. So the human child is the incarnation of the Mighty God. You lose the case to deny the incarnation of God to be a human being.
And the Son given is called the Eternal Father because the Son is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.
This all adds up to Christ being God. This adds up to uphold the biblical revelation that God became a man - Jesus Christ.
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All Christians know that Christ has come in the flesh.
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Every human person born has in that sense "come in the flesh". So why would John make a point that this was a particular important revelation to hold true to. The reason is probably because John is strongly implying that Jesus coming in the flesh means God Himself coming in the flesh.
In the same epistle John says that he and the fellow apostles have handled with their hands the word of life which was with the Father.
How can the life of the Father NOT be the Father Himself?
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, whgich we beheld and our hands handled concerning the word of life (And the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us):
That which we have seen and heard we report also to you also that you may have fellowship with us, and behold our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:1-3)
The life was with the Father because it is the Father's life. How can the Father's life not be the Father Himself?
If there is any doubt, the phrase the word of life reminds us of Johns Gospel. There he says that the Word was God plan and simple -
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
Down in the 14th verse of the same chapter John wrote "And the Word became flesh ...".
The Word Who was with God and Who was God became flesh. Therefore to confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh to John means to confess that God became a man. You lose the case.
The Word became flesh and "tabernacled among us" (John 1:14)
As God dwelt in the Old Testament Tabernacle so now John teaches that the dwelling place of God is the man Jesus on the earth.
But the same letter of First John also proves that God, the true God is the Father and the Son. The true God is not only the Father but the Son. This is John's closing point in fact in the letter.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we miight know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
What does the word "this" refer to? For John writes "This is the true God and eternal life."
The word "This" refers to Him who is true and His Son in whom the believers are in. " ... that we might know Him who is true; and we are in HIm who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. THIS ... (Him who is true and His Son) is the TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
The Father and the Son are therefore the true God and eternal life. This is completely consistent with all that John and Jesus have taught before. For instance to have the Son is the have the Father and to not have the Son is to not have God.
It is also consistent with Paul saying that fallen man is "alienated from the life of God." (EPh. 4:18).
The life of God is God Himself. And this to have Christ is to have the life of God and no longer to be alienated from the life of God. The Father and the Son are therefore the true God AND eternal life or the life of God.
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All Christians dont believe in your Triune or Trinity doctrine. God is the Father. Christ is the son of God. End of story.
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It is not the end of the story by any means. The Son is addressed as God Himself in the book of Hebrews:
"BUT AS TO THE SON, YOUR THRONE O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, THEREFORE GOD YOUR GOD< HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF EXULTANT JOY ABOVE YOUR PARTNERS." (Hebrews 1:8,9)
1.) The Son is addressed as "O God". So the Son of God is God.
2.) The Son is ANOINTED. This is because the Son is the anointed One - the Christ.
3.) The Son has "partners". Because the Son is also a human being the Son enjoys partners for He is not only God but God and man united.
4.) Because the Son is also a man the Son who is God has God the Father as His God - "therefore God, Your God, has anonted You ... above Your partners."
So the end of the story is that the Triune God is biblical even though the word Trinity does not appear in the Scriipture, The revelation and the fact appear. God's God is admittedly paradoxical. But we are not commanded to be able to explain. We are commanded to believe.
Jesus is the mingling of God and man. My God is the man Jesus Christ. The Bible says so.
Calling other Christians who dont believe your fabricated doctrines demons or devils show how much you really understand the teachings of Christ.
As for your quote from Revelation :
"And I saw out of the mouth of the dragon [Satan] and out of the mouth of the beast [the Antichrist] and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs; For they are spirits of demons ..." (Rev. 16:13,14a)
Whats translation are you using that calls the beast, the antichrist? Did ...
Originally posted by JigtieEveryone who doesn't find your immaturity in serious Bible study amusing is not necessarily without humour.
😴
I'm sorry? What was that in the middle? I don't think you have any
sense of humour. Further, I don't believe that the bible is for real. I
think it's a tool put together by men, for men about a man (I see
nothing Godlike in Jesus, I'm sorry) for the single purpose of uniting
mankind around one religion. Now, as noble a thought as that is, the
Nothing. Maybe he's just hiding in the body of a simple man, eh?
😴
Of course you have your belief or disbelief. I myself was not born a believer in Christ the Lord and Savior. It took a long time for me to come around to the truth.
Now why would you tempt God waiting for Him to strike you down? I think the emptiness and vaniity of a human life not knowing you are loved of God or where you came from or what your destiny is is "punishment" enough.