27 Apr 11
1 edit
A another interesting thing is in the book of Hebrews is that the priesthood of Christ is compared to the order of Melchizedek which is without beginning or end and it's the Kingdom and priesthood united in one person namely Christ. I forgot how beauitful the book of Hebrews is not only for the Jewish mind but for all. The superiority of Christ demonstrated.
Manny
27 Apr 11
Hebrews 7
Melchizedek's Priesthood Like Christ's
1For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.
3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
The Son of God had no beginning nor will have no end
The scriptures speak for themselves and G-75 the Spirit of God will speak to you through the scriptures if you allow Him and ask Him.
Manny
27 Apr 11
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71So your saying that Melchizedek's priesthood literally had no beginning and had no end? So this is literal? Melchizedek has lived forever and is still alive today and he literally had no mother and no father?
Hebrews 7
Melchizedek's Priesthood Like Christ's
1For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then ...[text shortened]... Spirit of God will speak to you through the scriptures if you allow Him and ask Him.
Manny
Maybe your not getting the correct understanding of these scriptures?
27 Apr 11
1 edit
Matthew 4:10 (New King James Version)
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the ((( LORD ))) your God, and Him only you shall serve".
Just another scripture that shows who we are to worship. Jesus, Jehovah's son says we are to worship no one but his Father. Jesus did not say to worship him or the Holy Spirit but only the Father.
What does the trinity teach in reguards to worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Side note: LORD is all capitalized which indicates this is where Jehovah or YHWH should be.
27 Apr 11
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Originally posted by galveston75I don't think we've ever said it was the correct way as no one alive today knows the correct way.
I don't think we've ever said it was the correct way as no one alive today knows the correct way. But it's the accepted pronounciation by most english speaking countries and it's even been used in countless movies, literatures, etc, etc and not that that's even important but just a fact.
But the really big problem even with the YHWH taken out is it now nd then Jesus also being called Lord. Instant confusion on your plate with leftovers......
If you don't know the correct pronunciation then you shouldn't make desparaging remarks about other denominations or their translations of the word. You JW's go around saying that somehow these other translations or faith groups are inferior because we don't say "Jehovah" well maybe we don't say Jehovah because tjhat is not God's name. God, Lord etc are acceptable because they are the english equivelent
edit: so now the objection is that it allows the trinity doctrine in? are you nuts? the trinity doctrine existed long before any modern translations existed and before the tetragrammaton was replaced with LORD. But it matters not because you will consult the oracle and they will give you your talking points of misdirection and obfuscation. And when all the points are rebutted and exhausted you will start at the begining and claim that we "just can't see". No Galv...you just don't see.
27 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75You seem to conviently forget that Jesus if both fully man and fully God.
Matthew 4:10 (New King James Version)
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the ((( LORD ))) your God, and Him only you shall serve".
Just another scripture that shows who we are to worship. Jesus, Jehovah's son says we are to worship no one but his Father. Jesus did not say to worship him or the ...[text shortened]...
Side note: LORD is all capitalized which indicates this is where Jehovah or YHWH should be.
And I have already posted the following from Isiah 6 before where the
Angels are praising God:
And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of
hosts, the whole earh is full of His glory." (Isiah 6:3 NASB)
To me this indicates that all three persons of the Godhead where there
together and the angel indicated this in his praise by using one Holy for
the person of the Father, another Holy for the person of the Son, and
the third Holy for the person of the Holy Spirit. I don't know what the
Jehovah's Witnesses eaplanation of this is, but I'm sure they have some
other reason that the angel said Holy three times instead of just one.
27 Apr 11
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Originally posted by galveston75NO the comparison is with Christ why is this figure even mentioned? This mysterious figure Melchizedek ? And the writer of Hebrews compares the Christ and Melchizedek.
So your saying that Melchizedek's priesthood literally had no beginning and had no end? So this is literal? Melchizedek has lived forever and is still alive today and he literally had no mother and no father?
Maybe your not getting the correct understanding of these scriptures?
Think outside of your dogma for a minute. Christ is the one who has no beginning or end. Some and this is a whole side issue but some theologians believe that Melchizedek was what they call a Christophany an appearance of Christ before his incarnation. The writer inspired by the Spirit of God made sure as to mention Melchizdek had no genealogy why? Think about it. Because this little tid bit of info shows us the true nature of Christ in the spiritual sense.
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Hebrews 1:6 and you can try to say that this word worship is something else but I
don't think it will stand.
Manny
27 Apr 11
Originally posted by menace71I am beginning to think these two are so brainwashed by the JWs
NO the comparison is with Christ why is this figure even mentioned? This mysterious figure Melchizedek ? And the writer of Hebrews compares the Christ and Melchizedek.
Think outside of your dogma for a minute. Christ is the one who has no beginning or end. Some and this is a whole side issue but some theologians believe that Melchizedek was what they cal ...[text shortened]... his little tid bit of info shows us the true nature of Christ in the spiritual sense.
Manny
that they may never see it, unless the Holy Spirit comes on them
like He did me.
27 Apr 11
Originally posted by RJHindsLol....The truth sets one free from OLD teachings that were devised by men as this trinity was. The Isrealites and Jews never once thought of and believed in anything like the trinity and anywhere you search on the internet, library, etc on their history compared to the ones who did believe in triad Gods the proof is there IF you really want to learn.
I am beginning to think these two are so brainwashed by the JWs
that they may never see it, unless the Holy Spirit comes on them
like He did me.
So it's not us that are brainwashed.....But thanks to the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and the so called forefathers of the Catholic church a few hundred years after Jesus death, they have you and most of Christendom believeing it.
Matthew 7:13-14 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
We fully expect that most will not see the falseness of the trinity.
27 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75I just posted the following on the Holy Spirit thread for you.
Lol....The truth sets one free from OLD teachings that were devised by men as this trinity was. The Isrealites and Jews never once thought of and believed in anything like the trinity and anywhere you search on the internet, library, etc on their history compared to the ones who did believe in triad Gods the proof is there IF you really want to learn.
...[text shortened]... d only a few find it.
We fully expect that most will not see the falseness of the trinity.
I took a lot of time looking up the references and typing out
the info since I am a poor typist. I copied my post below for
you since you can not understand why some of us believe the
trinity is not a false doctrine.
I've shown you scripture after scriptures that totally shows that there is one
God consisting of three persons of which the angel praised with Holy, Holy, Holy.
The Hebrew word translated "God" is in the plural form. God says let Us make
man in Our image is obviously not talking about or to angels for they are not
made in the image of God. The use of the plural in Hebrew along with the
subsequent use of the plural pronouns should at least be a cause for
suspicion that God is more than just one person. You accept that the father
is God and believe His name is Jehovah (YHVH, YHWH, Yahweh, etc). Yet
the Holy Bible does not come right out and say the Fathers name is Jehovah,
does it? Jesus never refers to His Father as Jehovah does He? I believe you
also accept Jesus as God also or at least a god. Jesus is called God in John 1:1,
"Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6 (see also 10:21), "our great God and Savior" in
Titus 2:13, and "Lord" in (Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Philippians 2:11).
Since the Holy Bible says there in only one true God, is Jesus a true God or a
false God? I don't believe you think Jesus is a false God, so it should be
reasonable to think the Godhead consist of at least two persons. That being
the Father and the Son. But let's not stop there, for the Bible also says one
more person is God, that is the Holy Spirit. (Acts 5:3-4) Besides all three being
called God, they all are seen at times to possess the attributes of diety.
1. Omnipresent - 1 Kings 8:27, Matthew 28:20, Psalm 139:7.
2. Omniscience - Psalm 147:5, John 16:30, 1 Corinthians 2:10
3. Omnipotence - Psalm 135:6, Matthew 28:18, Romans 15:19
4. Holiness - Revelation 15:4, Acts 3:14, Romans 1:4
5. Eternity - Psalm 90:2, Micah 5, John 1:2, Revelation 1:8,17
Each of these three are described as the truth - John 7:28, Revelation 3:7,
1 John 5:6
Each of the three are called Lord - Luke 2:11, Roman 10:12, 2 Cor. 3:17.
There other things in common too like, powerful, everlasting, and almighty.
But I am a little tired of getting all the references, so forgive me for stopping
here. Now after considering all the evidence I listed above take a look at
Matthew 3:16-17and 2 Corinthians 13:14. Now they alone do not prove the
trinity doctrine but they definely support it. I am using the NASB for my
references. So just as you believe the Father's name is Jehovah because you
see some support for it, those of us, who believe in the trinity doctrine, do so
because we see a lot of support for it. So I can't see why you insist it come
right out and say that God is a trinity.
Either you are Robbie mentioned something about the "Alpha and Omega" only referring to the Father. As I was looking up these other reference I came
across the following:
Revelation 1:7-8 says someone is coming in the clouds and every eye will see
Him, even those who pierced Him. This sounds like Jesus to me.
Then continuing in verse 8 it says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega", says the
Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Now note what He says in Revelation 22:12-13, "Behold, I come quickly.......
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the
end. Then note the response when He says again in verse 20, "Yes, I come
quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Then verse 21 says, The grace of the
Lord Jesus be with us all.
Also note Revelation 2:8, "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life says this:"
This obviously is Jesus speaking and He idenifies Himself as the first and
the last. See also, Isiah 48:12-13.
Remember also that this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
I hope you appreciate what I have done for you and don't just ignore it.
28 Apr 11
Originally posted by RJHindsI appreciate anyone that has an interest in the Bible and possibly learning the truth in it. But the ... . ..... . ...... . . . .. ........ aren't connecting here as they don't with all trinitarians.
I just posted the following on the Holy Spirit thread for you.
I took a lot of time looking up the references and typing out
the info since I am a poor typist. I copied my post below for
you since you can not understand why some of us believe the
trinity is not a false doctrine.
I've shown you scripture after scriptures that totally shows that there ...[text shortened]... hope you appreciate what I have done for you and don't just ignore it.
You may deny this but I have never met one trinitarian that will not confess at some point that the trinity "does not all make sense" as I believe you also have in an earlier post.
So you can throw any and all scriptures you want at us but so far everyone you have has not even remotley proved anything and in fact have done just the oppisite.
I may have missed an answer from you but I still have not had this simple question answered yet, why is the wording "Father and Son" mentioned so many times in the Bible but why is the Holy Spirit never given such a title? Is he not as important as the other 2? Must be as he's never even given a name or has never even been seen or heard from by voice?
I know the answer I will get though is I'm stupid for asking such a stupid question, I know but just give it a try once, OK?
28 Apr 11
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This debate has raged for centuries and we'll never see an end to it. I don't even bring it up anymore as I will not change the mind of JWs and they will not change mine. All we have left then is argument and possible ill will. It's simply not worth it. I say as long as people are brought to Christ, then who cares about the details.
If you're Christian, then that's good enough for me. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch over the color of your stripe.
Edit: the same can be said of the "faith vs. works" argument.
28 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75Now I know you for sure you are not bothering to read any
I appreciate anyone that has an interest in the Bible and possibly learning the truth in it. But the ... . ..... . ...... . . . .. ........ aren't connecting here as they don't with all trinitarians.
You may deny this but I have never met one trinitarian that will not confess at some point that the trinity "does not all make sense" as I believe you ...[text shortened]... is I'm stupid for asking such a stupid question, I know but just give it a try once, OK?
of my references. I have answered this question before about
mention of the Holy Spirit along with the Father and Son. But
for some reason you can't see it or maybe you feel I am not
worthy enough for you to pay attention to. But may I ask
you a question about this mention of the "Father and Son"
together. Does that mean you will at least accept that there
are two persons in the Godhead, the Father and the Son?
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28 Apr 11
Originally posted by galveston75Quote: ..."I have never met one trinitarian that will not confess at some point that the trinity "does not all make sense""
I appreciate anyone that has an interest in the Bible and possibly learning the truth in it. But the ... . ..... . ...... . . . .. ........ aren't connecting here as they don't with all trinitarians.
You may deny this but I have never met one trinitarian that will not confess at some point that the trinity "does not all make sense" as I believe you ...[text shortened]... is I'm stupid for asking such a stupid question, I know but just give it a try once, OK?
That is not a problem for trinitarians. In my religious training I was taught that the trinity is a mystery, but it is still true and faith in it is obligatory, to be saved. This, in part, was a way to differentiate between faith and belief, making faith more of an attitude of trusting acceptance, than the result of rigorous examination. It allowed there to be a realm of trusting acceptance (my beliefs), and a realm of rigorous examination (your beliefs).😉