Is Jesus Almighty God?
What did Jesus say?
“If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus acknowledged that he and his Father are not equals.
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17) Jesus did not speak of himself as God but spoke of God as a separate Person.
“I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.” (John 12:49) Jesus’ teachings did not come from him; they came from the Father.
JESUS claimed to be the Son of God, not Almighty God. If Jesus were God, to whom was he praying while here on earth? (Matthew 14:23; 26:26-29) Surely Jesus was not just pretending to talk to someone else!
When two of Jesus’ disciples asked him for special positions in his Kingdom, he answered: “This sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:23)
Was Jesus telling them a lie when he stated that he did not have the authority to grant their request? Hardly! Rather, he humbly acknowledged that only God has the authority to make such decisions. Jesus even explained that there were some things that neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.
Was Jesus lower than God only while he was a man here on earth? No. Even after his death and resurrection, Jesus is described in the Bible as being subordinate to God. The apostle Paul reminds us that “God is supreme over Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3, Today’s English Version)
The Bible says that in the future “when all things have been placed under Christ’s rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.”—1 Corinthians 15:28, TEV.
Clearly, Jesus is not God Almighty. That is why he spoke of his Father as “my God.”—Revelation 3:2, 12; 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4.*
09 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75The problem you and all Jehovah's Witness have Galveston is that (the actual truth not withstanding) your version of the deistic structure will never be accepted by anyone in mainstream Christianity. You and robbie have played your joker so to speak and you still don't win the hand; here's why.
Is Jesus Almighty God?
You believe that:
There are (at least) 2 gods, Jehovah (almighty god) and Jesus (mighty god)
There are 2 saviours, the above mentioned
That the lesser of your two gods and saviours is actually an angel
Therefore an angel is god (or at least one of them)
So, no matter how many scriptures you present, now matter how compelling your story may be or how eloquent a JW may be, the outcome of what you are proposing is to the vast majority of Christendom, complete error.
09 Feb 14
Originally posted by divegeesterThe problem arises because both sides refuse to accept that there are verses they wish were not in the Bible. For every verse you can quote which seems to suggest that Jesus is God himself there are 10 more which can be used to say otherwise :
The problem you and all Jehovah's Witness have Galveston is that (the actual truth not withstanding) your version of the deistic structure will never be accepted by anyone in mainstream Christianity. You and robbie have played your joker so to speak and you still don't win the hand; here's why.
You believe that:
There are (at least) 2 gods, Jehova ...[text shortened]... e, the outcome of what you are proposing is to the vast majority of Christendom, complete error.
Here are a few :
John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
"I can of my own self do nothing..."(John 5:30).
"My doctrine is not mine, but HIS that sent me." (John 7:16).
God is the head of Christ.
The list goes on.
Originally posted by divegeesterAnd we never expect it to....It would be great as most would finally get the truth of those scriptures, but we know it won't happen.
The problem you and all Jehovah's Witness have Galveston is that (the actual truth not withstanding) your version of the deistic structure will never be accepted by anyone in mainstream Christianity. You and robbie have played your joker so to speak and you still don't win the hand; here's why.
You believe that:
There are (at least) 2 gods, Jehova ...[text shortened]... e, the outcome of what you are proposing is to the vast majority of Christendom, complete error.
"Narrow and cramped is the road to life and FEW are the ones finding it"....
09 Feb 14
Originally posted by Rajk999This is why one has to "prove scripture with scripture". If the majority say one thing but only a few might seemingly say something else, let the Bible be the proof, not theories and doctrines.
The problem arises because both sides refuse to accept that there are verses they wish were not in the Bible. For every verse you can quote which seems to suggest that Jesus is God himself there are 10 more which can be used to say otherwise :
Here are a few :
John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, ...[text shortened]... ne, but HIS that sent me." (John 7:16).
God is the head of Christ.
The list goes on.
09 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75You keep quoting the "narrow road" analogy in various threads as though by doing so you somehow validate the outcomes of your beliefs which I've listed above. You do realise it doesn't do that, don't you?
"Narrow and cramped is the road to life and FEW are the ones finding it"....
09 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Galveston you (nor anyone here) prove anything by quoting scripture, at best all we do is present an alternative perspective. It is important to test the scriptures, interpretations and outcomes of a religion's beliefs.
This is why one has to "prove scripture with scripture". If the majority say one thing but only a few might seemingly say something else, let the Bible be the proof, not theories and doctrines.
When I look at the religion you happen to be a member of I see the doctrines of death, the godhead constructs involving multiple gods, angels etc. When I look at the outcomes of the behavioural doctrines I see social abuses with the shunning, dangerous practices of forbidding blood transfusions and a multitude of other bizarre beliefs and practices which speak volumes for the spirit which permeates the corporation.
09 Feb 14
Originally posted by divegeesterOk...that's fine.
Galveston you (nor anyone here) prove anything by quoting scripture, at best all we do is present an alternative perspective. It is important to test the scriptures, interpretations and outcomes of a religion's beliefs.
When I look at the religion you happen to be a member of I see the doctrines of death, the godhead constructs involving multiple god ...[text shortened]... izarre beliefs and practices which speak volumes for the spirit which permeates the corporation.
09 Feb 14
Originally posted by divegeesterLet me ask you about this scripture that Jesus spoke since you bring up shunning...... Luke 12:51-53:
Galveston you (nor anyone here) prove anything by quoting scripture, at best all we do is present an alternative perspective. It is important to test the scriptures, interpretations and outcomes of a religion's beliefs.
When I look at the religion you happen to be a member of I see the doctrines of death, the godhead constructs involving multiple god ...[text shortened]... izarre beliefs and practices which speak volumes for the spirit which permeates the corporation.
"Do you think I came to give peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
Do you see any connection of Jesus's words here and the disfellowshipping we have to do at times and as a last resort if a person is not repentant, will not stop the sin, and is a danger to the congregation?
Do you see any other christian religion that this scripture would apply to with these words Jesus said?
What more could divide a house hold or a family if one did stick to the bible on all levels even to the point of "removing that person from amoung yourselves"?
Originally posted by galveston75You [the JWs] are simply part of the fulfilment of one of the prophesies of Christ, who is just saying how foolish man-made religions will become because of His teachings.
Let me ask you about this scripture that Jesus spoke since you bring up shunning...... Luke 12:51-53:
"Do you think I came to give peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against fath ...[text shortened]... k to the bible on all levels even to the point of "removing that person from amoung yourselves"?
There is no part of the Bible that says its a good thing to do. Being part and parcel of something that is not good [division rather than peace] is not something to boast about.
09 Feb 14
Originally posted by galveston75You have had it pointed out to you by several posters on several occasions that dishfelloshipping is not the same thing as shunning. I have no issue with dishfelloshipping under certain circumstances but I have a big issue with what you organisation does to people when they shun them.
Let me ask you about this scripture that Jesus spoke since you bring up shunning...... Luke 12:51-53:
"Do you think I came to give peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against fath ...[text shortened]... k to the bible on all levels even to the point of "removing that person from amoung yourselves"?
09 Feb 14
Originally posted by divegeesterThis scripture here also applies to what you call shunning or not associating with ones even of their own familiy that causes danger to our sprituality and our relationship with Jehovah.
You have had it pointed out to you by several posters on several occasions that dishfelloshipping is not the same thing as shunning. I have no issue with dishfelloshipping under certain circumstances but I have a big issue with what you organisation does to people when they shun them.
Do you not agree with Jesus that doing this if the need is there and has scriptural bases, can cause this to happen as Jesus said? What other christain religions do this?
09 Feb 14
Originally posted by Rajk999But yet Jesus said he came to do that as a result of his teachings.
You [the JWs] are simply part of the fulfilment of one of the prophesies of Christ, who is just saying how foolish man-made religions will become because of His teachings.
There is no part of the Bible that says its a good thing to do. Being part and parcel of something that is not good [division rather than peace] is not something to boast about.
Things would happen between many familes because of some standing up to the Bible instead of backing down even to family because they don't like your beliefs and you don't fit into the norm as they do.