Is TRINITY Biblical??? Does TRINITY exsist in Godhead???

Originally posted by FMF
Oh? What can be said - by you, for instance - about "free[dom] to air ... thoughts publicly with regard to any inconsistencies or idiosyncrasies [...] without fear of repercussion or violence..." in the largest Muslim country in the world - which ought to be at least one of your terms of reference when pontificating about Islam?

are you trying to tell the forum that the same degree of freedom of speech which exists within the Christan realm also exists within Islam, if you are then you are seriously deluded, or ill informed? nor can you hold it to geographic boundaries, for it is well understood that this lack of transparency is a general trait throughout the Muslim world, whether you are in Europe, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, wherever!

for example i write an article, draw cartoons, publish it in a newspaper, do i expect the publisher to be threatened, their premises petrol bombed, 24/7 police protection, no, well then, what have you to say for yourself?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
are you trying to tell the forum that the same degree of freedom of speech which exists within the Christan realm also exists within Islam, if you are then you are seriously deluded, or ill informed? nor can you hold it to geographic boundaries, for it is well understood that this lack of transparency is a general trait throughout the Muslim world, w ...[text shortened]... remises petrol bombed, 24/7 police protection, no, well then, what have you to say for yourself?

Hello friends, let me remind you... that our topic for tonite is TRINITY!!! Lets not go out of topic! I thank our dear friends for giving us wonderful insights regarding the topic.. But we need more!!!

Plzzz Let all traditional Christians not grumble about the discussions in this thread, but give logical answers as the Scripture clearly says :
But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
are you trying to tell the forum that the same degree of freedom of speech which exists within the Christan realm also exists within Islam, if you are then you are seriously deluded, or ill informed? nor can you hold it to geographic boundaries, for it is well understood that this lack of transparency is a general trait throughout the Muslim world, w ...[text shortened]... remises petrol bombed, 24/7 police protection, no, well then, what have you to say for yourself?

What does freedom of speech have to do with Christianity?

Originally posted by joelgeorge
Hello friends, let me remind you... that our topic for tonite is TRINITY!!! Lets not go out of topic! I thank our dear friends for giving us wonderful insights regarding the topic.. But we need more!!!

Plzzz Let all traditional Christians not grumble about the discussions in this thread, but give logical answers as the Scripture clearly says :
[b]But ...[text shortened]... bout the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride. [/b]

yes you are correct my friend, these meanderings are not conducive to the theme of your topic, i apologize - regards Robbie.

Originally posted by FMF
What does freedom of speech have to do with Christianity?

you are not only being evasive but have made a facetious statement, either answer the question with honesty and transparency or not at all. you were asked to provide anything contrary to the assertion that Islam from its inception has fostered and fomented freedom of speech, you have done nothing of the sort, why not?, because it does not exist that is why! your lack of evidence to the contrary is proof. But the original poster is correct, this is a post with regard to the trinity, however your lack of honesty is noted!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you are not only being evasive but have made a facetious statement, either answer the question with honesty and transparency or not at all. you were asked to provide anything contrary to the assertion that Islam from its inception has fostered and fomented freedom of speech, you have done nothing of the sort, why not?, because it does not exist that ...[text shortened]... er is correct, this is a post with regard to the trinity, however your lack of honesty is noted!

You talking about politics here? You are talking about the political context of Islam? The biggest Muslim country in the world has democratized itself phenomenally in the last 10 years, it has rapidly increasing freedom of speech, and it has a moderate form of Islam that is a threat to know one, and perhaps has a lot to teach jaded Christians about a personal relationship with God. Now whay don't you compare that to the 2,000 years of history in the "Christian realm" where people were burned at the stake for things inside their head, 100,000s of thousands of Christian "Salman Rushdies" were put to death and where 'freedom of speech' was way off the radar? Try the comparison I have tee'd up, why don't you? The ones you tee up are cliched, highly selective, and self-serving. Try mine this time.

however your lack of honesty is noted!

Now come one. Don't be a silly billy. Dissent = dishonesty? How gauche.

Originally posted by FMF
You talking about politics here? You are talking about the political context of Islam? The biggest Muslim country in the world has democratized itself phenomenally in the last 10 years, it has rapidly increasing freedom of speech, and it has a moderate form of Islam that is a threat to know one, and perhaps has a lot to teach jaded Christians about a personal re ...[text shortened]... noted!

Now come one. Don't be a silly billy. Dissent = dishonesty? How gauche.[/b]

i am talking about the modern legacy of Islam with regard to freedom of speech, this has nothing to do with politics nor with democracy, and if there is change with regard to personal freedoms and human rights, this has come about, not through the office of Islam, but through secular means, and simply holding Indonesia up and saying, oh look how moderate and civilized our Islam is, still does not negate any of the actions of other 'Muslims', with regard to their interpretation and implementation of Islamic law, perhaps in your little world it does, but just to test it out, why don't you publish and article about Mohamed or one of his wives, say his youngest 'wife', Aisha whom he married aged six on the subject of its merits or otherwise, see if you are still here in the morning to post your reply!

Originally posted by jaywill
The Trinity is quite biblical.
But more it is quite experiencial.

Your back patting self appreciation is really impressive. And I am glad that your Muslim friends offer you some "fun" and entertainment. But the Trinity is quite biblical.

I don't realy think human beings [b]would not come up with an idea like the Triune God even if they were able to. You have to blame it on the Bible.[/b]

Our frnd, "jaywill" claims that :

1. The Trinity is quite biblical.
You say it is biblical, but still how can you prove something that is not there in the bible! Tell us 1 proper acceptable definition of Trinity with authenticated sources & examples & lets examine if it really is biblical.

2. But more it is quite experiencial.
Could you plz describe your experience with the TRINITY!

3. I don't realy think human beings would not come up with an idea like the Triune God even if they were able to. You have to blame it on the Bible.
If it is not humans who came up with this idea of a triune god, how can it be possible, for an OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT & OMNIPRESENT God, to forget the Key Doctrine of Trinity to be included in HIS Inspired WORD which he authorized the historians to write???

Kindly explain, why would you need to blame the Bible for something which it does not say & which it does not claim.

If the TRIUNE god is truly divine, why dont anyone in this whole world have the guts to include the same in any of the Bibles ever existed??? Why is it that, though there are numerous versions of bible in the World today & many are getting revised etc., why is it that the term TRIUNE/TRINITY not included/added in the Bible???

(I would request our trinitarian friends to give us a logical answer according to the scriptures @ I Pet 3:15!)

Originally posted by FMF
You talking about politics here? You are talking about the political context of Islam? The biggest Muslim country in the world has democratized itself phenomenally in the last 10 years, it has rapidly increasing freedom of speech, and it has a moderate form of Islam that is a threat to know one, and perhaps has a lot to teach jaded Christians about a personal re ...[text shortened]... noted!

Now come one. Don't be a silly billy. Dissent = dishonesty? How gauche.[/b]

Sir, Plz stay on the point of our thread. I appreciate your views. We respect it. If you want, I don't mind starting another thread for you & we all will join there for that.. Hope you understand. Thnx. Joel.

(Friends, put in more of your ideas & views FOR/AGAINST Trinity)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why don't you publish and article about Mohamed or one of his wives, say his youngest 'wife', Aisha whom he married aged six on the subject of its merits or otherwise

Why would I want to do such a thing? Presumably you have missed the mountain of scorn poured upon a profoundly backward and "devout" Muslim man here, 2008, who was "betrothed" to a 13 year old. He drew condemnation from all quarters of society, both religious and secular.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
simply holding Indonesia up and saying, oh look how moderate and civilized our Islam is, still does not negate any of the actions of other 'Muslims', with regard to their interpretation and implementation of Islamic law, perhaps in your little world it does

The way you construct your argument is much the same way as racists contruct theirs, such as it is. Who said I was trying to "negate [...] the actions of other 'Muslims'"? (Why the inverted commas?) My "little world", as you put it, happens to be the biggest Muslim country in the world. Mmmm. A little inconvenient for you, perhaps? LOL. The fact that you seem to want to carefully ignore it, rather than allow it to modify your outlook, says a lot, I think, about your real agenda here.

This "Spirituality" forum is crawling with self-professed Christians who are whatever the religious eqivalent of racists are. How many Musilm members of the RHP site bother to brave the abuse and hatred that poisons the air day in day out on these threads?

Originally posted by joelgeorge
Sir, Plz stay on the point of our thread. I appreciate your views. We respect it.

Well this hostility that is being directed at me, has resulted from me saying that the Trinity nonsense gets shredded by Islamic theologians, and quite rightly so.

Originally posted by FMF
Why would I want to do such a thing? Presumably you have missed the mountain of scorn poured upon a profoundly backward and "devout" Muslim man here, 2008, who was "betrothed" to a 13 year old. He drew condemnation from all quarters of society, both religious and secular.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
simply holding Indonesia up and saying, o brave the abuse and hatred that poisons the air day in day out on these threads?

in respect of joelgeorges request i will desist from bursting the bubble of your deluded little world any further, for Indonesia does not have the highest percentage of Muslims per capita as you keep alluding to, another deception or delusion, who can tell? perhaps you may accompany me to Pakistan where i used to live, the second largest Islamic nation where you may publish your edict on the life of Muhammad and his wives and see how long you last, given your allusion to Islamic freedom of speech which at the third request you have conveniently ignored, truly pathetic in the original sense of the word.

note to Joelgeorge, sorry my friend, this is the last i shall post with regard to the deception of Islamic freedom of speech, enjoy your trinity discussion - regards Robbie.

Originally posted by joelgeorge
Our frnd, "jaywill" claims that :

1. The Trinity is quite biblical.
[b]You say it is biblical, but still how can you prove something that is not there in the bible! Tell us 1 proper acceptable definition of Trinity with authenticated sources & examples & lets examine if it really is biblical.


3. I don't realy think human beings would ...[text shortened]... rinitarian friends to give us a logical answer according to the scriptures @ I Pet 3:15!)[/b][/b]

This could be a very large subject. I would recommend that you interested parties read this concise article entitled:

MODALISM, TRITHEISM, OR THE PURE REVELATION OF THE TRIUNE GOD ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/modalism.html


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2. But more it is quite experiencial.
Could you plz describe your experience with the TRINITY!
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I would prefer to highlight a few passages that show the experiencial side of the Trinity directly from the New Testament. I think that would be more solid evidence since the question is whether the Triune God is biblical or not.

Look at Romans 8:9-11

"But you [the Christians in Rome]... are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (v.9)

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.(v.10)

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (v.11)

The One Who indwells the believes takes on a number of titles in an enterchangeable way.

The Spirit of God is said dwell in the Christians in verse 9. But in the next breath Paul writes that this Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them. So the One who indwells the believers is the Spirit of God who is also the Spirit of Christ.

Then in verse 10 we see it is Christ Who dwells in the believers - "But if Christ is in you ..." So the Spirit of God who is also the Spirit of Christ dwelling in the believers is Christ Himself dwelling in the believers - "Christ is in you".

So we have three enterchangeable titles of ONE indwelling [Person] - The Spirit of God = The Spirit of Christ = Christ Himself. This of course is very experiencial. The indwelling of the Triune God is for enjoyment and experience. His indwelling is not merely that man may have a confusing doctrine but that man might LIVE in the realm of the Trinity.

But we go on. We have seen that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. And we have seen that the Spirit of God (Christ) is Christ Himself. Now we go on to see in 11 that this One is also the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead - "And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you ...". Now we should know that the Father raised Jesus from the dead according to, for example,

Galatians 1:1 - " ... and God the Father, who raised Him [Christ] from the dead." . And we read that God raised Jesus up from the dead, ie. " Whom [that is Jesus]... God has raised up, having loosed the pangs of death..." (Acts 2:24)

So "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" must be the Spirit of the Father. The Father raised Jesus from the dead. But there cannot be two or three indwelling Spirits. So the Spirit of Christ who is enterchangeably called "Christ" (compare v.9 and v.10) is also the indwelling Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

The one who is indwelt by this Triune God cannot detect or discern any difference. To the one in whom God indwells The Spirit of God = The Spirit of Christ = Christ = The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

Of course the same chapter of Romans tells us in verse 34 that Christ is at the right hand of God interceding for the believer on earth - "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who intercedes for us. "(Rom. 8:34)

So in this experiencial chapter Christ is both within the believers (v.10) and is simultaneously at the right hand of God in the third heavens interceding for the believers on earth. This proves that the indwelling Triune God is at once the Father who raised Jesus from the dead, the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, and the Son Christ. One Three-one God in a very mysterious yet experiencial way.

Usually the people arguing against the revelation of the Triune God are the ones who are lacking the experience of the indwelling or are probably deficient in living by the indwelling Divine [Person] - a goal of the book of Romans.

Now Christ is in the believers by means of the Spirit of God - the Spirit of Christ. We are told that Christ in resurrection became a life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) So it is no wonder that to "give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit" (Rom 8:11) means for Christ Himself who became a "life giving Spirit" to come and dwell within.

Christ promised that both He and His Father would come to dwell within the believers:

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

The word "WE" here refers to Jesus and His Father. The Divine "WE" will come to make a dwelling place within the one who loves Jesus and keeps His word. So Romans is quite logically a confirmation that within the Roman Christians is:

The Spirit of God who is the Spirit of Christ who in turn is enterchangeable with Christ Himself who is incidently the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. The Triune God as the life giving Spirit comes to dispense the Trinity of eternal life into His people.

Further reading is here:

The Revelation of the Triune God according to the Pure Word of the Bible
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/revelation.html

What a Heresy - Two Divine Fathers, Two Life Giving Spirits, and Three Gods !

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/heresy.html

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Indonesia does not have the highest percentage of Muslims per capita as you keep alluding to, another deception or delusion, who can tell?

I "alluded" to nothing of the sort. It's the largest Muslim nation in the world, whether it suits your agenda or not, Mr Angry Pants.

When you were in Pakistan, didn't you find that Christian 'Trinity' stuff held little water in any spiritual or intellectual debate with educated, worldly Muslims? It's been a real education to me here.

Originally posted by joelgeorge
I agree that the SECOND Person in TRINITY was really a Person! Now prove, me that The FIRST Person in TRINITY & The THIRD Person in TRINITY are also Persons Biblically! Can you call Spirit a Person? If so what is the difference?

Friends, please dont feel offended for any of my posts. I wish to know the truth & live for truth..

If you want to chat o ...[text shortened]... ttlefriendhappy@yahoo.com or you may call me on : +639166166633. Open debates are most welcome..

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I agree that the SECOND Person in TRINITY was really a Person! Now prove, me that The FIRST Person in TRINITY & The THIRD Person in TRINITY are also Persons Biblically! Can you call Spirit a Person? If so what is the difference?
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I would say that I could only "borrow" the word Person or Persons. The limitation of our human language in speaking of the nature of God makes stressing the word "Person/s" too far liable to lead to error.

But that the Third of the Triune God, the Holy Spirit is as much "Person" as the Father and the Son is evident.

1. In each of the letters of chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation there is a design. The beginning of each letter is the words of Christ. But at the end of each letter it says to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Therefore the speaking of Jesus Christ the Son of God is the speaking of the Holy Spirit.

2.) The Spirit is a "Person" because the Bible says that "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) and the Lord Jesus is certainly a Person.

3.) When " the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" according to 1 Cor. 15:45 there is no evidence that this tranformation caused Him (the last Adam) to cease to be a "Person". It follows then that "the Lord is the Spirit" refers to the Person of the Lord Jesus, the last Adam, who "became a life giving Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

4.) The Spirit not only is the speaking Person in Rev.2:7,11,17,29;3:6,13,22. The Spirit spoke in Revelation 14:13 - "Yes, says the Spirit, that they [the martyrs] may rest from their labors ... ". He also recorded as testifying to Paul in Acts - "the Holy Spirit solemnly testifies .."(Acts20:23). And He is recorded as saying "Thus says the Holy Spirit..." in (Acts 21:11)

5.) We are told not to make the Holy Spirit unhappy - Ephesians 4:30. - "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." This indicates that the Holy Spirit has emotions as a Person would.

6.) It is by means of the Holy Spirit that the Christians know that they abide in God the Person and this Person of God abides in the believers:

"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:13)

"And he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24)

7.) The Spirit Who was to come to live in the disciples was simply Jesus who was with the disciples in coming in another form. And Jesus is a Person:

" ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know [Him]; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you." (John 14:17)

Jesus in the flesh was abiding with them. But He will become the life giving Spirit, the Spirit of reality who will abide IN them after His resurrection. That is what verse 17 means. The One WITH them shall become the One IN them.

For this reason in the next verse 18, Jesus says that HE is coming to the dicisples - "I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:18)

The meaning of verses 17 and 18 is not about the second coming of CHrist at the end of the church age. These verses are about the Jesus who was with them leaving them in death and coming again to them in resurrection to indwell them as the Spirit of reality.

Paul confirms this by teaching that Christ the last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) and that "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

8.) The Spirit is also said to be the "eternal Spirit" (Heb. 9:14 yet God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16) So the eternal Spirit, the Holy Spirit must be God the Person.

I could go on for hours. But these few samples should be enough to prove that as we use "Person" with the Father and the Son, we also can use "Person" for the Holy Spirit.

Indeed to lie to the Holy Spirit was to lie to God in Acts 5:3,4; and this deceiving was to try to test the Spirit of the Lord (Acts 5:9)

The Third of the Triune God is the final reaching of God to and into man. The Third of the Trinity is the dispensing of the Father and the Son into the believers. Through the Holy Spirit God finally reaches man in a most subjective way to be the divine and eternal life of man.

In the end of the Bible the Bridegroom Chirst has a Bride, the New Jerusalem. But in one passage the Bride is paired up with the Spirit. This shows that Christ the Bridegroom is also the Holy Spirit:

"The Spirit and the Bride say Come ..." (Rev. 22:17)

The last Adam Christ has become the life giving eternal Holy Spirit of life to give God into man. God is the eternal life. The Spirit is therefore the Bridegroom indwelling the Bride His church and His New Jerusalem made up of all the saved (Jew and Gentile).