Originally posted by divegeesterdivegeester, ever since we meet on this site it's been my impression that you are a believer in Christ. Your comments in this thread seem to suggest that you reject the existence of the three persons of the trinity of which one is the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Before pursuing an understanding of Christ's commission to the disciples, please clarify your belief. Thank you. -Bob
Find one scripture where the disciples actually baptised in "the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit".
After that that instruction they all, every time, baptised "in the name of Jesus".
Therefore, what is the given name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit?
Did they get it wrong or are you wrong?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Jacob's Ladder - My comments toward off topic remarks will be skewed towards the topic.
There has been some complaining about the Trinity. How can I relate this to Jacob's dream ?
Well, we see that God appeared to Jacob in his dream as "standing". We may assume a human like figure is what Jacob saw, for a man stands.
"And there was Jehovah, standing above it; and He said, I am Jehovah, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac." (28:13a)
God appeared as a Man standing, I think. The Father and the Son is strongly implied. The One standing utters the words that He is, after all, Jehovah.
"And there was Jehovah, standing above it; and He said, I am Jehovah, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac." (28:13a)
Now we are told that the name of the place was also Luz.
"And he called the name of that place Bethel, but the name of the city was Luz previously." (v.19)
What else are we told in Genesis about the place Luz? Jacob said at the end of his life that God Almighty appeared to him at Luz.
Genesis 48:3 - "And Jacob said to Joseph, The All-sufficient God appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me."
These are among the last closing words of Jacob. The last words of a man are often the most important. He wanted his son Joseph to know that God Almighty, Jehovah, the All-sufficient God appeared to him that night in a dream, at Luz.
The One standing like a Man at the top of the ladder was God. How can we not recognize the Father and the Son strongly implied in Genesis? And therefore the Triune God.
The Father and the Son is implied in Jehovah standing at the top of the ladder in heaven and the Holy Spirit is strongly implied in the oil poured on top of the stone pillar in verse 18.
"And Jacob ... took the stone that he had put under his head. [ for a pillow] and he set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it." (v.18)
We have the Father in the Son implied in the One standing as a Man who is Jehovah God. And we have the Holy Spirit symbolized in the pouring of oil upon the stone. The stone is the created man. This vision and Jacob's realization, is about the Triune God imparting Himself into His saved people for the building up of a corporate expression.
The Trinity is here. And the operation of the Trinity to accomplish His eternal purpose is very much here also.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
The Trinity is strongly implied in Genesis 28 and chapter 43 where Jacob recalls his experience to his son Joseph before he died.
This post is a preemptive one.
Was the One standing at the top of the ladder God "ALMIGHTY?" The JWs and other Arians would say that God Almighty never appeared as a standing Man.
Here are some other English translations of Genesis 48:3
New International Version
Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and there he blessed me
New Living Translation
Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me.
English Standard Version
And Jacob said to Joseph, “God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,
New American Standard Bible
Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,
King James Bible
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me.
International Standard Version
Jacob reminded Joseph, "God Almighty revealed himself to me at Luz in Canaan and blessed me.
NET Bible
Jacob said to Joseph, "The sovereign God appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in Canaan and blessed me.
Jubilee Bible 2000
and said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me
King James 2000 Bible
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
American King James Version
And Jacob said to Joseph, God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
American Standard Version
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
Douay-Rheims Bible
And when Joseph was come in to him, he said : God Almighty appeared to me at Lute, which is in the land of Chanaan: and he blessed me,
Darby Bible Translation
And Jacob said to Joseph, The Almighty God appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by Rajk999Here is another comment I will try to steer my reply towards my OP.
I asked this
Where does the statement by Paul that "the head of Christ is God" fit into your beliefs.
You never answered.
The complaint is if Christ's Head is God then He cannot be God. Right ?
What God is can hardly be separated from what God does, in the Bible.
He is three-one in manifesting, redeeming, and dispensing Himself to man.
1.) It is not the destination that He only manifest Himself.
2.) Neither is it the destination that He merely redeem man.
3.) The final goal is that this God would convey, dispense, and impart what He is into the being of the saved humanity.
In the journey from God to God in us, there is the need for God to become like us. He became like us that we may become like Him.
In the "unpacking" of God He is the Son under the authority of the Father. But He also embodies the Father. But He also is the Father made visible.
Do not think we were the first to be perplexed at this unusual triune nature of God. John records how Philip could stand it no longer and asked Jesus to show the twelve disciples the Father -
Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? (John 14:8,9)
Consider the words - "Have I not been so long with you and you have not known .... ME ... Philip"
The Father is absolutely seen, declared, manifested, explained in Jesus the Son. Jesus was a Man. Jesus is still a Man. And every man is under the headship of the Father. Yet the Father is manifested in this authority / submission living of the Son of God.
That the Son is God is beyond dispute. For the Son is addressed as God in the New Testament several times, including here in Hebrews 1:8
"But of the Son, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ..."
The recipient of the proclamation is "the Son".
The proclamation is that He - God - God the Son, has a throne forever and ever. There is no room for any argument.
"But of the Son. 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hatred lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners." (vs.8,9)
1.) The Son is God.
2.) The Son has His God.
3.) Therefore God is both the Son and the Father.
4.) As a man God incarnate has "partners" - other men.
His saved humans have joy indeed. Yet He has joy ABOVE all of them.
5.) They have joy of salvation. But He has exultant joy "above" theirs. - "Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy ABOVE YOUR PARTNERS."
6.) As as Man He has loved righteousness and hated lawlessness - as an obedient Man as the Son of the Father.
7.) He is rewarded with a coming kingdom. And the scepter of the kingdom is in His hands.
8.) So the Father has His Headship over Christ the Son. Yet the Son is God and the Father is His God.
9.) His being God is not temporary. It is for eternity - "But of the Son, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.' "
His authority, His sphere of administration is for eternity.
Now in the next post I will try to tie this in with Jacob's dream.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by Rajk999
NO, NO NO.
If Christ's head is God then, Christ cannot be EQUAL to God.
Please address that issue.
My comments will be skewed to lean towards my OP about Genesis 28. Otherwise the thread is hijacked off to an essentially different topic.
The person seen "standing " at the top of the ladder, self confessed is Jehovah. So this Person is EQUAL to Jehovah.
"And he dreamed: There was a ladder set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God ascended and descended on it.
And there was *** JEHOVAH *** standing ... "
Or as galveston might do it " And there was (((((((((( Jehovah )))))))))) standing ..." lol.
The first point is the the Person standing (like a human figure would be standing) is Jehovah. So says me? Rather so says the Person standing -
"And there was Jehovah, standing above it, and He said, I (((((( am Jehovah )))))), the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac ..."
Jacob saw God.
Now in the New Testament the Son of Man was obedient to the Father, sent by the Father, prayed to the Father, moved, acted, spoke, thought, and did everything in obedience to the Father. I think there is no argument here.
Now this "Son of Man" Who obviously was Jesus Himself, He made equivalent to the God Jehovah Whom Jacob saw in his vision.
" Nathaniel answered Him, Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.
Jesus answered and said to him, Is it because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree that you believe? You shall see greater things than these.
And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." (John 1:49-51)
1.) The Son of God is Jesus.
2.) The Son of Man is Jesus.
3.) The Son of God is also the Son of Man there.
4.) The Son of Man, Jesus says, is that ladder connecting earth to heaven.
5.) The Son of Man and the Son of God are obedient, under the Father's authority, subordinate to the Father.
6.) In the thought, words, Jesus is that ladder.
Now some may protest - "Yes He is the ladder. He is not Jehovah God standing at the top of the ladder."
But the deeper meaning is that through the incarnation of God as a man the divine LADDER connecting earth to heaven / heaven to earth is here.
Think of it as God extending Himself to the earth through incarnation as the Son of Man. God reaching to the earth through the Word becoming flesh. That is the Word that was with God and was God (John 1:1). The Word - God, became flesh and "tabernacled" among us (John 1:14) .
God being the Head of the Man Christ does not make the incarnation of God as a man not happen.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyFind one scripture where the disciples actually baptised in "the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit".
divegeester, ever since we meet on this site it's been my impression that you are a believer in Christ. Your comments in this thread seem to suggest that you reject the existence of the three persons of the trinity of which one is the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Before pursuing an understanding of Christ's commission to the disciples, please clarify your belief. Thank you. -Bob
After that that instruction they all, every time, baptised "in the name of Jesus".
Therefore, what is the given name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit?
Did they get it wrong or did you get it wrong?
Originally posted by divegeesterThread 159413
Find one scripture where the disciples actually baptised in "the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit".
After that that instruction they all, every time, baptised "in the name of Jesus".
Therefore, what is the given name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit?
Did they get it wrong or did you get it wrong?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
The man Jacob reaches a higher level of harmony with God's original purpose for man. That includes the other notable figures in Genesis - Adam, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, or Isaac.
Jacob is an unlikely one to have been chosen to exemplify God's plan for man. For Jacob was a supplanter, a heel-holder, a very crafty young man. But though Jacob's natural personality was so bad he was chosen by God and was predestinated to have the birthright blessing.
The long story of Jacob shows us that his struggling and shrewedness which he exercised even while in his mother's womb, were not necessary. Before the foundation of the world Jacob had been chosen by God. Even though he was born second, hanging on to the heel of his twin brother at birth, he was "first" in the eyes of the eternal God who chose him.
God predestined this tricky man to have the birthright. In light of the whole bible the birthright includes:
1.) expressing God as a priests
2.) representing God as kings
3.) inheriting God's inheritance as heirs
This was indicated in the original statement of God's creating humanity -
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing which creeps upon the earth.
And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Gen. 1:26,27)
The expression of God in man, the reigning of God through man, and the inheriting of God's creation for man are all here in the original divine intention.
Though Adam failed and reliquished this "birthright" Jacob the unlikely supplanter was worked on by God's transformation to become Israel a prince of God. And the reigning aspect of Jacob's life is seen in his blessing Pharoah the ruler of the world and in the ascension of Jacob's son Joseph.
For Jacob at the end of his long life to bless Pharoah indicates that he was higher than the highest person in human government. Jacob the man transformed to Israel was higher than the king of Egypt and blessed him (Genesis 47:7-10).
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
This is a beautiful picture. The man Jacob at the end becomes Israel. And his life of considerable trouble (mostly brought on by his own supplanting) results in him being spiritually higher than the highest man on earth Pharoah. Israel blesses the king of the earth:
" And Joseph brought in Jacob his father and set him before Pharoah, and Jacob blessed Pharoah.
And Pharoah said to Jacob, How many are the years of your life?
And Jacob said to Pharoah, The years of my sojourning are one hundred thirty years; few and evil have been the years of my life, and they have not attained to the years of the lives of my fathers during the days of my sojourning.
And Jacob blessed Pharoah and went forth from Pharoah's presence." (Gen. 47:7-10)
Jacob's life as a heel holder and supplanter from birth, coveting, tricking, scheming and causing a lot of trouble for himself, ends in a majestic spiritual maturity. He was chosen by God even before he was born. He did not have to be afraid, scheme, cheat, steal to secure God's blessing for himself. Israel (Jacob) had many mistakes. God used them all to transform Jacob and turn him into a prince of God higher than the king of the world.
It is not insignificant that the man Jacob who had the vision of God's ladder and God's house, in his last days blessed Pharoah, the king of Egypt.
