Jesus vs. God

Originally posted by twhitehead
I made no excuses. I just stated the facts as I see them - and it had nothing to do with the Jews bad behavior.

[b]So what if the Jews eradicated whole nations who sacrificed babies to moloch! They had over 400 years to repent and turn from their wicked ways and they would've lived.
Now that, is what we call 'excuses'.[/b]

Let me ask you do you think it's okay to kill your own babies to a god that doesn't exist back then if you think gods don't exist?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
You are dealing with an irrational belief. You are absolutely correct, there is not a single iota of scripture where Jesus claims that he is God and like you say, someone simply made it up. The idea comes from the exegesis of scriptures which on the surface seem to support that idea, for example Isaiah 9:6 states that Jesus is an eternal father, so ...[text shortened]... a completely irrational and emotive response, devoid in many cases of both substance and reason.

What a load of JW waffle. I took a fair bit of time constructing my posts as the subject matter is important to me.

Isaiah does not say that "Jesus is an (sneakily slipped in to support the duel saviours you have) eternal father", as you well know, it says the the child (Jesus) will be called "everlasting Father, Mighty GOD, prince of peace, wonderful councillor..."
As I stated above these are the offices of the ONE God. Different manifestations and revelations of the same entity.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me on this, but you need to make sense and be accurate.

I notice chaney3 has ducked out btw.

Originally posted by RBHILL
Let me ask you do you think it's okay to kill your own babies to a god that doesn't exist back then if you think gods don't exist?

It is never ever OK to kill your own babies, or anyone else's for that matter. Nor were the various genocides the Jews supposedly carried out OK. And in case you didn't read it right, the Bible says that the Jews were killing babies on Gods orders. Do you think that was OK?

Originally posted by chaney3
I am asking this question based on my replies to a thread created by 'sonship' called: The Jealousy of God. In my posts to that thread I had stated that God stated in the 1st Commandment that He wanted us to worship Him only.....otherwise He would be jealous.....something close to that.....I am paraphrasing.

I am not concerned at this point with Buddah, ...[text shortened]... t merely confess my sins, and all will be fine. If you believe that Jesus is God...........WHY?

"Why do Christians believe that Jesus is God?"

Because that is what the scriptures teach.

Originally posted by josephw
Because that is what the scriptures teach.

Actually it very much up to how you interpret the scriptures. So more accurately "Because that is what some who interpret the scriptures teach".

Originally posted by divegeester
What a load of JW waffle. I took a fair bit of time constructing my posts as the subject matter is important to me.

Isaiah does not say that "Jesus is an (sneakily slipped in to support the duel saviours you have) eternal father", as you well know, it says the the child (Jesus) will be called "everlasting Father, Mighty GOD, prince of peace, wonderful ...[text shortened]... me on this, but you need to make sense and be accurate.

I notice chaney3 has ducked out btw.

Okay, first.....I didn't 'duck' out....I went to bed. Second, I have read what you have posted and it ALL is up to an interpretation. If YOU are SO sure that Jesus is God.....then why on earth is anybody still worshiping Buddah? Obviously, not everyone on the planet agrees with you. Furthermore.....I am not trying to solve some quaint math problem here.....if you are correct about Jesus, then my soul and eternity are at stake here. Jesus should have said directly, and without any doubt that He is God. Why the mystery, why the games?? Jesus said 'the Father and I are one'....I am supposed to base my entire faith on that???

Please do NOT lecture me anymore about what you 'think' you know divegeester, it is insulting. You have a certain arrogance about the way you write. If YOU know everything about God and Jesus, then you should tell the world and save everyone.

Originally posted by divegeester
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

Before Abraham was, I AM

I and the Father are ONE

Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins

Why did the religious educated Pharisees want to stone him?
“For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because [b]You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God”
(John 10: ...[text shortened]... days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body”
(John 2:19, 21, KJV).[/b]

Matt 27:46 "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If Jesus was God, then God forsook himself. Makes no sense.

"I and the Father are ONE" is a typical mystical pronouncement. It means that one has become one with God, not that one is God.

Originally posted by moonbus
Matt 27:46 "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If Jesus was God, then God forsook himself. Makes no sense.

"I and the Father are ONE" is a typical mystical pronouncement. It means that one has become one with God, not that one is God.

And the rest of ex scriptures I cited...?

Why have you forsaken me was fulfilling prophecy from Daivd and also providing the opportunity for the sacrifice to bear the burden.

Deal with the rest of scriptures I cited.

Originally posted by moonbus
Matt 27:46 "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If Jesus was God, then God forsook himself. Makes no sense.

"I and the Father are ONE" is a typical mystical pronouncement. It means that one has become one with God, not that one is God.

There are hundreds of scriptures where Jesus is praying to God the Father. That implies that Jesus is praying to 'somebody else'. In the garden....Jesus asks 'God' if this cup can be passed....meaning....did He have to die on the cross. Jesus was talking to 'somebody else'. None of this makes any sense...you are correct moonbus. If God wants us to know Him and love Him......He certainly did planet earth NO good by introducing Jesus. All we have now is a mystery.....to try and understand the Trinity...and as a human, I have no concept of that. It is frustrating. And....I am TIRED of reading anything written by diveegester, he seems to think that he is the only person on earth who understands the Trinity. A true man will admit that the Trinity is impossible to understand.....a fake man will claim that he fully 'gets it'.

Originally posted by divegeester
And the rest of ex scriptures I cited...?

Deal with the rest of scriptures I cited.

One step at a time.

The whole of the OT was re-interpreted and redacted by Christians to be one long drawn out prediction leading up to the coming of the Messiah. The Jews, whose Book that is, don't see it that way. So I don't see that your OT references support the claim that Jesus and God are identical, and I'm not alone in that. Jews and Muslims also regard Jesus as a prophet, but not God.

Incidentally, a pagan once asked one of the ancient oracles the question "Is Jesus God?" He got an astounding answer. The answer he got was clear and simple (astounding, because pagan oracles were famous for answering in riddles). The answer he got was: "Jesus is a man of great piety, but those who worship him as God are making a grave error." [This is recounted by Robin Lane Fox in his history, "Pagans & Christians in an Age of Uncertainty."]

Four world religions (paganism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) agree that Jesus existed and was a prophet; three of them say he was a man and not God. So it's 3 to 1 against that the Christians got it right. Give me three good reasons why I should believe the religion in the middle when two older ones and one newer one are unified in their claim?

If your answer is "Scripture says so" then I see no reason to accept that as the final word. Islam accepts the Bible, too, and says there was an epilogue. So, either the OT was complete as it was in the Jewish tradition; or the OT got revised, once in the NT and again in the Koran. Either way, the religion in the middle looks untenable.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Why do Christians believe that Jesus is God?"

Because that is what the scriptures teach.[/b]

the OP has already pointed out that there is not a single verse in the entire Bible where Jesus claims that he is God and many more besides which demonstrate the absurdity of the proposition.

Originally posted by chaney3
Okay, first.....I didn't 'duck' out....I went to bed. Second, I have read what you have posted and it ALL is up to an interpretation. If YOU are SO sure that Jesus is God.....then why on earth is anybody still worshiping Buddah? Obviously, not everyone on the planet agrees with you. Furthermore.....I am not trying to solve some quaint math problem here.. ...[text shortened]... . If YOU know everything about God and Jesus, then you should tell the world and save everyone.

arrogant and opinionated just about sums it up.

Originally posted by moonbus
One step at a time.

The whole of the OT was re-interpreted and redacted by Christians to be one long drawn out prediction leading up to the coming of the Messiah. The Jews, whose Book that is, don't see it that way. So I don't see that your OT references support the claim that Jesus and God are identical, and I'm not alone in that. Jews and Muslims also r ...[text shortened]... in the NT and again in the Koran. Either way, the religion in the middle looks untenable.

I am not at all a Bible scholar......but just wanted to add my opinion on this. I believe that you are correct in that everything in the Old Testament has been re-interpreted to the coming of the 'Messiah'. However.......I have asked.....what exactly is the 'Messiah'?? A savior?? I have read the Old Testament, and it NEVER says that God Himself will be that Messiah/Savior. I am beginning to think that 2000 years ago, the religious leaders realized that the God in the OT had many, many faults....including what appears to be human emotions. It is my opinion that they decided to 'change' God, to fit their concept......and create the New Testament. I once asked a Pastor if he believed that Jonah really spent 3 days in the belly of a whale, or large fish, and his reply was.......'Well, if I believe in the Bible....I must believe all of it, or NONE of it.' The problem with people trying to convince me of Jesus being God....is that they are quoting scripture from a Bible that I am not even sure is valid. All of this is seemingly unknowable, and I still feel that if God wanted us to know Him and love Him......He does a really bad, bad job at revealing Himself. Not to mention how 250,000 people die from an earthquake and tsunami......where is God??????

Originally posted by divegeester
What a load of JW waffle. I took a fair bit of time constructing my posts as the subject matter is important to me.

Isaiah does not say that "Jesus is an (sneakily slipped in to support the duel saviours you have) eternal father", as you well know, it says the the child (Jesus) will be called "everlasting Father, Mighty GOD, prince of peace, wonderful ...[text shortened]... me on this, but you need to make sense and be accurate.

I notice chaney3 has ducked out btw.

I dont think so infact he seems to be calling attention to your ability to believe nothing but your own propaganda. Once again you seem incapable of rational thought, the issue has nothing to do with Jehovahs witnesses, duel saviors or any other silly notion that you care to fabricate and has everything to do with the fact that you cannot provide a single reference where Jesus claimed that he was God and instead arrogantly subject us to your reasoning as if it has some efficacy beyond the puffiness with which you seek to imbue it.

And once again i see its a battle against your ignorance. The scripture does state that Jesus is a mighty god, it does not state that Jesus is Almighty God for which there is an entirely different Hebrew term. The scriptures frequently term powerful spiritual entities as gods. They even term Satan a god of the system and human judges as gods. Does that reference mean that Satan is Almighty God? No? then your insistence (based on your arrogance and willful ignorance to acknowledge certain incontrovertible facts) makes your assertion that the term mighty god in reference to Jesus makes him Almighty God unsubstantiated, unreasonable, irrational and not supported by a single Biblical reference.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dont think so infact he seems to be calling attention to your ability to believe nothing but your own propaganda. Once again you seem incapable of rational thought, the issue has nothing to do with Jehovahs witnesses, duel saviors or any other silly notion that you care to fabricate and has everything to do with the fact that you cannot provide a ...[text shortened]... God unsubstantiated, unreasonable, irrational and not supported by a single Biblical reference.

Very good Robbie. I think that a lot of arrogance is posted here....maybe because what I have found is that when someone is asked about Jesus being God......there is really NO answer......and an ensuing fight is on hand. I want to share a personal story: Years back, I was on the phone with my dad (he was drunk), and we were debating this issue. But, he said something funny. He told me that he was sure that Jesus had 'hard ons' from looking at women. At the time, I fought with him and told him about his blasphemy. But upon reflection.....if Jesus was a human man, then he surely must have gotten hard thinking about women....and seeing women. How can we justify God Himself coming to earth......and getting hard??? It does NOT make sense. Even the disciples who spent every hour with Jesus denied Him at the last moment.......how could someone do this to God? The Trinity is the worst thing to happen to God. If we are wrong about Jesus, then we are violating the 1st Commandment every day. Nobody yet has said anything relevant to 'prove' that Jesus is God. So......to end with a funny note.......did Jesus get a hard on when looking at human women?? I would.