Originally posted by kevcvs57But everyone can be privy to what God wants us to do or not do.
My issue with theists is that they claim that god exists and they are privvy to what he/she wants us to do/not do.
It's right there in black and white in the Bible.
(C'mon, you had to know that was coming.)
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Originally posted by SuzianneYeah, but every theist of every religion [that has a holy book] says that about their holy book.
But everyone can be privy to what God wants us to do or not do.
It's right there in black and white in the Bible.
(C'mon, you had to know that was coming.)
Also if you do claim that the bible is god telling us what to do then we get back to those
discussions you love so much about what the bible does actually tell people to do.
Originally posted by googlefudgeUm, yeah, I get all that. I fully understand your point of view. You're just wrong, is all.
I have explained it several times before but as you pop in and out you have probably missed it.
Here is the last time I explained it.
bottom of page 6 on this thread
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=146188&page=6
Originally posted by whodey[/b]
[b]"All I am saying is that if you believe things that are not tr d.
It IS the way we conquer individual biases and objectively know things."
In fact it is a foundational cornerstone of my position that believing things that are false is dangerous as it can lead to making harmful decisions.This is where your position falls apart. It is my position that I do not believe anything that is false. I believe in God. God is not false. Believing in God is not immoral, in fact, I'm pretty convinced that not believing in God is what is immoral. I know you disagree. This is where I again say, "You're just wrong, is all."
You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'm perfectly willing to leave it at that.
Your next line:
Intentionally doing so or not taking reasonable precautions to prevent you doing so is thus immoral.indicates that you think that not preventing me from believing what I believe is immoral. I think that is perfectly ghastly, actually. Not that you will succeed, but that you think not trying to turn me from God is immoral. What a twist on the word immoral.
And that is why you are wrong.
Well it's been a delight to here the responses, chest thumping aside. Part of me is amazed it has not begun to deteriorate into a Zionist bashing thread. That is nice for a change.
From the responses thus far we have:
1. Judaism is more of a cultural faith that is not evangalistic. It has been engrained in the Jewish people to maintain their culture and religion, so as not to intermingle with other faiths that would cause them to forget their own religion. This is why it has lasted since ancient times, something very few, except maybe Hinduism, can boast.
There is no debating this I think.
2. Jews tend to be more educated on average.
Although this was intended to be a dig against theists by implying we are all ignorant and stupid, I looked at it another way. Academia in large part has become secular and atheistic, so it would stand to reason that the products of higher education would spit out equivalent drones on mass. In fact, I have had many a debate with professors on the subject of the existence of God. People like me were novalties in the class room, because either there were no practicing people of faith present, or they shrank back in their chairs as they watched in horror how the professor assaulted me. At first it took me off gaurd and I lost many of the first debates, especially when they were highly intelligent and good at debating. However, I got better at it and I began to question why they seemed so focused on the issue and me. It was almost as if they seemed to be trying to convince themselves as they were trying to convince me. Plus, it seemed most were pompus arses, so much of it rolled off my back.
3. Jews spend the majority of the energy attacking Jesus as Messiah.
Although I think visted did a pretty good job contradicting this notion, I think there may be some truth to it. After all, if Jesus really was God in the flesh, then he has been rejected by the Jews, so atheism would be a natural evolution in large part I think.
May I offer another proposal?
4. The Holocaust.
How can a living just God let it happen?
I would love to see stats on Jews in Israel and compare them to those in the US. Does anyone have any?
And lastly, I think it interesting that Judaism, which seems to be a rather benign evangalistic religion, has given birth to two of the most successful evangalistic religions in history, namely Christianity and Islam. As for myself, I can honestly say that if it were not for one Jesus Christ, I probably would not be religious. What can I say, he captured my heart and my mind. 😀
Originally posted by whodeyLook, it is the very same living, just God who put the Jews through the Holocaust as the living, just God who put them through the Babylonian Exile.
Well it's been a delight to here the responses, chest thumping aside. Part of me is amazed it has not begun to deteriorate into a Zionist bashing thread. That is nice for a change.
From the responses thus far we have:
1. Judaism is more of a cultural faith that is not evangalistic.
There is no debating this I think.
2. Jews tend to be more ed ...[text shortened]... love to see stats on Jews in Israel and compare them to those in the US. Does anyone have any?
The Jews have a long history of disobeying God, to their extreme peril.
Originally posted by SuzianneIndeed. The question I think is not why God allows "bad" things to happen, rather, it is why God allowed it to happen in mass.
Look, it is the very same living, just God who put the Jews through the Holocaust as the living, just God who put them through the Babylonian Exile.
The Jews have a long history of disobeying God, to their extreme peril.
I think until you confront the first question, however, you have no chance of answering the second.
Originally posted by googlefudgeI have and you ignore it. You have the witness of the Holy Bible as evidence
Not true.
You [nor anyone else] have never provided any evidence at all for your claims of god and the supernatural.
Show me some evidence and I will evaluate it.
of the existence of God and the supernatural and you get caught up in the
early part of the old testament that you can not understand, because you are
unable to connect it to the new testament that explains the old because you
want consider the whole without clinging to your bias.
You also have the beauty, order, and complexity of God's creations as evidence
of His existence.
You have archaeological, historical, and scientific evidence that supports the
case for the accuracy of the Holy Bible and for the existence of the Son of God.
You dismiss all the evidence for the resurrection of Christ with a blink of the eye. The empty tomb, the Shroud of Turin, and the face cloth are dismissed
without giving any indication that you even considered them. It takes more
than a few seconds to actually investigate these things.
I believe RBHill pointed out that evidence of the Egyptian chariots, such as
the wheels have been photographed under water at the crossing site of the
sea. The location of the mountain of Moses is known and is guarded by the
Muslims. It has all the evidence indicated in the Bible that proves it is that
mountain according to researchers.
Originally posted by SuzianneThis is a new one. [Or not.]
Look, it is the very same living, just God who put the Jews through the Holocaust as the living, just God who put them through the Babylonian Exile.
The Jews have a long history of disobeying God, to their extreme peril.
What act of Jewish disobedience to God lead to the Holocaust?
Originally posted by whodeyThree cheers for non-evangelistic religions.
Well it's been a delight to here the responses, chest thumping aside. Part of me is amazed it has not begun to deteriorate into a Zionist bashing thread. That is nice for a change.
From the responses thus far we have:
1. Judaism is more of a cultural faith that is not evangalistic. It has been engrained in the Jewish people to maintain their culture ...[text shortened]... rist, I probably would not be religious. What can I say, he captured my heart and my mind. 😀
Was once listening to the radio program Focus on the Family sternly warning Christian parents not to send their kid to secular universities because of the inevitable stripping of their cherished beliefs by the secularists. Was kind of funny, actually. My church experience was a big exercise in how to Think Just Like the Rest of the Group. No matter what the passage or question, there was no 'interpretation' there was only prodding until the student produced the doctrinally approved interpretation of the text. It became more of a guessing game of what words the teacher wanted to hear rather than an honest, personal reading of the text.
Is it any wonder that they cannot debate skeptics after being turned from critical readers to conformists by their authoritarian teachers? And this is just on stuff that everyone should agree on. I would like to see the look on the kid's face when he joins college and hears the Problem of Evil argument for the first time. 🙂
I feel their pain. If you had a bunch of bigots calling you dirty Christ-killers then you might get a bit defensive about this idea that Jesus was any more than a sh it-stirring, itinerant, apocalyptic preacher who died rather young. This would not entail atheism or denial of Yahweh. Some Jews still wait for their messiah. They would not if they had lost faith.
Well, if God can drown nearly every human and animal in a worldwide flood, then why not allow the Holocaust? The flood story shows that he does not much care if all the victims were worthy of death, just so long as a few of them were bastards.
I think Christianity and Islam stole the OT for their own nefarious purposes like Bill Gates stole Apple's GUI and made Windows.
Originally posted by SwissGambitProbably the rejection of the Son of God as their King. Or the evil
This is a new one. [Or not.]
What act of Jewish disobedience to God lead to the Holocaust?
things Bobby Fischer could tell you about them if he were still alive.
P.S. But God still loves them anyway. How strange, isn't it?