11 Apr 13
Originally posted by RJHindsYes I did, although I asked some follow up questions later in the thread as to what such ideas would actually mean.
Did you understand the English words I used in my explanation at the end of page one? You never commented on it. I try to use simple English most of the time, because I am a simple man. Did it help with your understanding at all?
Keep in mind also that every theist seems to have a different take on this topic, so my answers to sonship are regarding a different explanation from yours, so you might also want to explain to him your explanation and he might want to explain his to you.
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11 Apr 13
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Why can't you simply answer the questions I ask rather than going off on tangents and trying to get a few sermons in sideways?
As long as you post and try to get a few of your athiest bitchings in sideways some of us will post and get a few sermons in sideways.
The moment you die you will not totally cease to exist.
That is what I believe.
One question met with one straightforward answer.
Once you expire YOU, twhitehead, whoever you are, will be conscious that you have not totally passed out of existence.
I do not know what the weather will be like there where ever you go.
I do not know a whole lot of things about the soul's continued existence after physical death.
Many questions I cannot answer. But I answered you. And you do understand me. You may not believe me.
Your mind, emotion, and will and I think also your conscience will not be annhilated the moment you expire.
You will await the resurrection of your physical body. This seems to be a part of the revelation of the Bible. This seems to be the specific part that I think you were curious about.
Now if you do not believe me then you just say "I don't believe you."
You don't need to pretend that you cannot understand me because you do understand me, I am pretty sure.
11 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipAnd that is the key that I want answers to, and that nobody will answer. Who am I? What defines me? And what gives you the confidence that you know who I am and what defines me? Are you sure it is what I think is who I am and what defines me? Do I really care what happens to the 'me' that you think will stay on after my death?
.... YOU, twhitehead, whoever you are, ...
You haven't even begun to address these issues.
11 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipI now understand what you believe on this point, though I am still very unclear as to how this relates the John 3:16.
You don't need to pretend that you cannot [b]understand me because you do understand me, I am pretty sure.[/b]
And although I understand you, you haven't answered some of my key questions.
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11 Apr 13
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Originally posted by twhiteheadLike I have said. You understand enough to argue against it.
And that is the key that I want answers to, and that nobody will answer. Who am I? What defines me? And what gives you the confidence that you know who I am and what defines me? Are you sure it is what I think is who I am and what defines me? Do I really care what happens to the 'me' that you think will stay on after my death?
You haven't even begun to address these issues.
What defines me?
Your spirit which needs to be born again in regeneration if you are not a Christian.
Your soul,
And your physical body.
So First Thesselonians 5:23 speaks of complete sanctification as being of "spirit and soul and body".
"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
At least we know that human beings are composed of "spirit and soul and body".
The three are to be united together and not separated.
To exist with a separation of the soul from the body is abnormal.
Nevertheless it does occur at physical death. For the soul to be separated from the body is YOU but incomplete.
There is something else which is incomplete. That is to have soul and body together yet the human spirit is in a comatose and deadened state. This is to be unregenerated and is also an incompleteness of the humanity.
The human spirit is damaged, deadened, in a comatose state and therefore Christ comes that the human spirit would be enlivened - born of God.
The YOU in its most normal state is spirit (not deadened but made alive) and soul and body together.
If I hit your body and you say "Hey, do not hit me!" I cannot excuse myself by saying "But I did not hit YOU I hit just your body." You might respond that to hit your body was to hit YOU. So stop.
Your soul is you.
You body is you too.
And your human spirit - the highest and deepest component of your being - is also you. And the three are to not be separated but be united.
Are you sure it is what I think is who I am and what defines me?
I am sure that you are "spirit and soul and body".
Do I really care what happens to the 'me' that you think will stay on after my death?
I don't know if you care. I care.
You haven't even begun to address these issues
This translates to me to - "You haven't yet forced me to believe as you do."
Now I will briefly look at one question you have about this and John 3:16.
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11 Apr 13
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I now understand what you believe on this point, though I am still very unclear as to how this relates the John 3:16.
And although I understand you, you haven't answered some of my key questions.
I don't know what your "key question" is supposed to be.
But what I just briefly explained relates to the whole third chapter of John in many ways.
But specifically to verse 16 I beleive the eternal life there that one receives upon believing into the Son of God includes the enjoyment of God as divine life in all stages.
1. Eternal life in being regenerated in the born again experience.
2. Eternal life in the soul being conformed to the image of Christ.
3. Eternal life in the body being resurrected and glorified.
The result of the full salvation of Christ is therefore as I explained in First Thessalonians 5:23 -
"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)
The eternal life there in John 3:16 is the inception, development and growth, maturity and climax of the dispensing of God into man to sanctify man "wholly" .
So there is no only ONE way that it relates to John 3:16. Expounding on the two truths could be approached from many angles. And someone else might explain things a little differently.
You asked me so you got my answer.
11 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt looks to me that we are saying basically the same thing in different ways. I haven't been taken up into the 3rd heaven nor have I had a near-death experience. So my explanation is only based on what I believe is presented as the truth on that matter from the Holy Bible. Also my command of all languages, including English, is not very good. I wish I could help you understand, as I do, but I can't guarantee that my understanding is without flaws.
Yes I did, although I asked some follow up questions later in the thread as to what such ideas would actually mean.
Keep in mind also that every theist seems to have a different take on this topic, so my answers to sonship are regarding a different explanation from yours, so you might also want to explain to him your explanation and he might want to explain his to you.
12 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipI think you completely misunderstand me. There is no question of you forcing me to believe as you do. I am genuinely interested in knowing whether anyone has any answers to the obvious logical problems that the concept of a soul creates. I do not expect to be converted to any religion as a result, nor am I particularly interested in sitting through hours of boring sermons - which I have to admit seem largely nonsensical to me. It seems however you are only interested in giving sermons and not in dealing with the logical problems. Your wasting your time, the more you waffle on, the more I think you are a raving lunatic.
This translates to me to - "You haven't yet forced me to believe as you do."
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12 Apr 13
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I particularly interested in sitting through hours of boring sermons - which I have to admit seem largely nonsensical to me.
You got answers. You got some explanations to specific inquiries..
Human spirit, human soul, human body = you.
Don't tell me you got evaded. You got some explanations.
You got some about eternal life.
You got some about your personal death.
Your faked interest would have to graduate to be even qualified with me to be called boring.
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13 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipThe verse you use is for Christians, not unbelievers. Not every human being is born with body soul and spirit.
Like I have said. You understand enough to argue against it.
What defines me?
Your spirit which needs to be born again in regeneration if you are not a Christian.
Your soul,
And your physical body.
So [b]First Thesselonians 5:23 speaks of complete sanctification as being of "spirit and soul and body".
"An I will briefly look at one question you have about this and [b]John 3:16.[/b]
Body, yes. Soul, yes. The body is evident, the soul is simply what animates the body. It is life itself. Animals and humans have soul life. Spirit is what a human being receives when he/she gets "born again".
Unbelievers have no spirit, just body and soul.
When an unbeliever or "natural man" dies, the body decays and the soul is lost with the last breath. They, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist.
At the "Judgement" it is not a hard thing for God to restore these people and then cast them into the Lake of fire, where they will burn up and turn to ashes and be no more.
13 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipNo, 'sermons' = deliberately not answering the questions asked but rather going of on a preaching spree about what you believe the Bible tells you about something quite different.
I guess enthusiam = "sermons".
Now I could be totally wrong, and you may believe you are enthusiastically answering my questions.
13 Apr 13
Originally posted by Conrau KIt's less about an "afterlife", than it is about a proper adjustment to one's present life. Loving oneself, and loving others, as finite beings.
But why should we care about such an "afterlife"? To be known by God is hardly a comfort to the person who has experienced an agonising death.
13 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipSorry but that remains extremely vague - hence I asked some probing questions about what that entails, yet instead of answering them, you took thousands of words to tell me the vagueness that I already knew.
You got answers. You got [b]some explanations to specific inquiries..
Human spirit, human soul, human body = you.[/b]
13 Apr 13
Originally posted by divegeesterThat which we are will eventually dissolve. But do we ever actually cease to exist? When we consider the past, and talk about a specific individual in it, are we referring to nothing, or something? What precisely is the referent of 'nothing' anyway? God, being infinite, is as present to the past as s/he is to the present moment, so in a certain sense the past will always exist.
This may be making more sense to twhitehead, but I'm struggling to understand what your post, and especially this piece, actually means?