John 8:58

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Jesus Christ declared his own timeless existence - neo platonists

Dear reader, what the neo platonist is declaring is that Chrsit has always existed, despite the fact that the idea has no support linguistically from any text. Again their religious bias is self evident when we examine not only their reasons but their biased translation. No finer a ...[text shortened]... e sacred text, judge for yourselves whether these things are not self evident.

Third time of asking in different threads:

Who is your spiritual father, Jesus or Jehovah?

absolute nonsense, there is not a single iota in the entire verse which demonstrates that 'Jesus Christ declared his own timeless existence', none.

1.) Where in your reference to the Living Bible's rendering of John 8:58 is the evidence that Christ was at one time UNCREATED - ever ?

Your labors on John 8:58 never provide you with that assumption.

2.) You reject the Apostle John's prologue that "the Word was God." If God was ever in non-existence then the Word too was once in non-existence.

Since God was never in non-existence the Word who was God was never in non-existence.

3.) If the Word that was with God is another God besides the God Whom the Word was, then you have two Gods and are therefore a polytheist or, as some would say henotheist (a supreme God among a number of Gods).

4.) John says that Isaiah saw His [Christ] glory:

Compare:

John 12:41 - "These things said Isaiah because he saw His glory and spoke concerning Him."

Isaiah 6:1,3 - "In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting on a high and lofty throne, ... And one [seraphim] called to the other, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Jehovah of hosts; The whole earth is filled with His glory."

The interpretation is confirmed by verses 44 and 45:

"But Jesus cried out and said, He who believes into Me does not believe into Me, but into Him who sent Me;

And he who beholds Me beholds Him who sent Me."

We believe therefore that Jesus was Jehovah God incarnate as John states "the Word was God ... And the Word became flesh" (John 1:1,14)

5.) Jesus in Matthew 23:37 identified Himself as Jehovah God of the Old Testament become a man.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matt. 23:37)

It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young:

Isaiah 31:5 - Like flying birds so Jehovah of hosts will protect Jerusalem; He will protect and deliver it; He will pass over and rescue it."

Compare to God's general protection over His people in Deuteronomy 32:11,12:

"As the eagle rouses his nest, Hovers over his young, Spreads his wings, takes them, And bears them up upon his pinions; So Jehovah led him, And there was no strange god with Him." (Deut. 32:11,12)

Since it was Jehovah God Himself who cared for Jerusalem and His elect in this way, when the Lord Jesus said " I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings," He indicated that He was God Himself.

As God Himself He was never non-existent. But "the Word became flesh" in incarnation.

Its is a religious bias seeking to impose itself on scripture which has led you and your equally biased commentators to say that there is.

This is your conspiracy theory. Rather you Arians, just as John said of the Gnostics, went out from us to demonstrate that you were not of us believers in the Gospel -

" ... even now many antichrists have come; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out that they might be manifested that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)

Satan is still bitter about this. This bitterness is manifested in your suspicion of collusion and conspiracy. But you just have not seen the revelation of the New Testament that Jesus is Jehovah God incarnate.

Those who have seen you accuse of being Plato's disciples and other pagan source accusations.

Though some pagan leaven has infested Christiandom, it is not in the Gospel of John where "the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh". And that is why I wrote that you overplay the pagan card.

Easter, Christmas, Holloween, Mother and Child portraits (which are not uniquely Christian) do NOT make the Word was [not] God. So you overplay your "pagan influence" alarm system as if no other Bible readers but yourselves have realized pagan leaven has infested religious traditions.

You will now of course answer the question of why you have translated the verse the way you have to support that bias which i have demonstrated with reference, knowing that the exact same Greek construct exists elsewhere and yet is translated differently than the verse at John 8:58. Shall i tell you why? religious bias seeking to impose itself onto scripture,

I did not go into grammatical issues of "What would sound better in plain English". Other took you up on that matter.

If not a complete red herring, it is a unnecessary distraction. And taking 19 diverse and independent translators who generally all have something akin to "Before Abraham was, I am" and claiming they are all in collusion and conspiracy against you with a prejudice bias is Watchtower induced persecution complex.

Besides, it is ludicrous to think the following comparisons suggest Jesus did not communicate to us that He was the uncreated self existing God:

"Do not fear; I am the First and the Last" (Revelation 1:17)

Compare -

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

You, your translators are thoroughly scurrilous in this regard for after having been exposed you still cling to the neo platonic extra biblical paganism which formed the bias.

Explain the "neo platonic extra biblical" elements in the simple words of Revelation 1:17 and Isaiah 44:6 . Tell us all about how Plato injected his philosophy into those passages.

Originally posted by sonship

absolute nonsense, there is not a single iota in the entire verse which demonstrates that 'Jesus Christ declared his own timeless existence', none.

1.) Where in your reference to the Living Bible's rendering of John 8:58 is the evidence that Christ was at one time UNCREATED - ever ?

Your labors on [b]John 8:58 never provide how Plato injected his philosophy into those passages.[/b]

i reject your extra Biblical neo platonism, your attempts to insidiously impose that upon scripture where none exists in the text, your biased commentaries and your blatantly biased and now exposed translations which tamper with tenses and obscure the implicit meaning of the text and which you use to perpetuate your paganism, that is what I reject.

The fact that you could not address a single issue that I raised with regard to your translation, the linguistics, its rendering or the reasons why it is rendered in the way it is, is rather telling and you now resort to what most evangelicals do when pressed upon with incontrovertible evidence of their bias, they think that by obscuring the matter with a plethora of irrelevant Biblical texts they can hide among them, well it aint happening, the bias that you use to perpetuate your dogma is insidious and it will be rooted out.

Fess up! I am ready to hear your confessions.

i reject your extra Biblical neo platonism,

How did you put it?
Oh yes, "Opinion masquerading as fact."

The night Jesus became real to me I was alone with God. No expert on Plato's philosophy was there to convince me that I had met God.

your attempts to insidiously impose that upon scripture where none exists in the text,

They crucified Him because the meaning was there in His words.
We believe because the meaning was there in the text of God's book and in the witness of the Holy Spirit.

your biased commentaries and your blatantly biased and now exposed translations which tamper with tenses and obscure the implicit meaning of the text and which you use to perpetuate your paganism, that is what I reject.

You're saying that all who do not believe Watchtower Christology are "biased."

You're saying all who refuse to acknowledge Christ as not Michael the angel but God manifest in the flesh are "pagan".

The fact that you could not address a single issue that I raised with regard to your translation, the linguistics, its rendering or the reasons why it is rendered in the way it is,

The fact that you resort to the admittedly paraphrase Living Bible rather than more "wooden" translations (which sacrifice good sounding English for accuracy) such 1901 American Standard is telling.

"Before Abraham was born, I am." (1901 ASV)

I was personally told by the author of the college Greek language text "The Language of the New Testament", Dr. Eugene Van Ness Goetchius, that the 1901 ASV has a reputation among Greek linquists as being a "wooden translation". He explained that that meant instead of leaning towards smooth sounding English they leaned toward accuracy of word for word Greek equivalence.

English translations like Living Bible, Good New For Modern Man, J.P. Phillips Translation, and others tend to be more smooth English sounding. It is a difference in intent of editors.

" What does the Greek really come out to be in English words " verses "How best to make the English translation smoother, friendlier".

Fortunately, there are many English versions to consult. And that is only ONE language.

is rather telling and you now resort to what most evangelicals do when pressed upon with incontrovertible evidence of their bias,

I suppose that those of us who bow the knee and confess Christ and God are neo-platonian with a bias as well.

Compare:

"That in the name of Jesus very knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10,11)

Compare:

"I have sworn by Myself; a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return, That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear.

It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength." (Isaiah 45:23,24)

Which one was neo-Platonian, the prophet Isaiah or the Apostle Paul ?

they think that by obscuring the matter with a plethora of irrelevant Biblical

The Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus when He utter that He was the "I AM" before Abraham was, not because the words were irrelevant.

texts they can hide among them, well it aint happening, the bias that you use to perpetuate your dogma is insidious and it will be rooted out.

That's what the religionist mob thought when they picked up stones or cried "Crucify, Crucify Him !".

The fact that you could not bring yourself to bow the knee NOW to Jesus and confess NOW to the Lord Jesus shows that you are in rebellion against Jehovah.

You seem to think the Bible should be arranged as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Ecclesiastes. At least you seem to want to make the final word in the divine revelation some Old Testament book before the incarnation.

What "ain't happening" is that the gates of hades spewing antichrist hatred against the Word become flesh will prevail against the church that Christ builds. That's what "ain't happenng".

Fess up! I am ready to hear your confessions.

Okay. My God is the Man Jesus Christ.
I confess that I believe that the Word became flesh and that Christ the Son of God is the I AM of Exodus 3:14.

Originally posted by sonship

i reject your extra Biblical neo platonism,

How did you put it?
Oh yes, "Opinion masquerading as fact."

The night Jesus became real to me I was [b]alone with God. No expert on Plato's philosophy was there to convince me that I had met God.

[quote]
your attempts to insidiously impose that upon scripture where none exists ...[text shortened]... and that Christ the Son of God is the I AM of Exodus 3:14.[/b]

good and what about the religious bias of your commentaries and especially the translations that you use to perpetuate your bias.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
good and what about the religious bias of your commentaries and especially the translations that you use to perpetuate your bias.

"[wrong] Opinion masquerading as fact".

All who are not in your revolt against Jehovah God manifested in a man the Son of God are "biased".

Where did the philosopher Plato influence the disciple Thomas to confess Jesus was his Lord and his God ?

"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and My God." (John 20:28)

When did Thomas learn his neo-Platonian bias ? And when did Jesus pick up His neo-Platonian bias when instead of correcting Thomas for calling Him his God, said instead -

"Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (v.29)

Jesus says I am blessed rather than biased.

Typo, I meant above to write:

You're saying that all who do not believe Watchtower Christology are "biased."

You're saying all who refuse to acknowledge Christ as Michael the angel but rather God manifest in the flesh, are "pagan".

Originally posted by sonship
"[wrong] Opinion masquerading as fact".

All who are not in your revolt against Jehovah God manifested in a man the Son of God are "biased".

Where did the philosopher Plato influence the disciple Thomas to confess Jesus was his Lord and his God ?

[b]"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and My God." (John 20:28)

When did Thomas le as Michael the angel but rather God manifest in the flesh, are "pagan". [/quote][/b]

same old neo platonic dogma, still cannot bring yourself to admit that your insidious paganism has been perpetrated upon the sacred text by biased translation and untrustworthy theologians, like a destructive virus it will destroy itself, when you are ready, I will hear your confessions. I could easily reason against your paganism, citing chapter and verse , but i prefer to expose it at its root, in linguistics and translation for then you cannot slither hither and zither.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
same old neo platonic dogma, still cannot bring yourself to admit that your insidious paganism has been perpetrated upon the sacred text by biased translation and untrustworthy theologians, like a destructive virus it will destroy itself, when you are ready, I will hear your confessions. I could easily reason against your paganism, citing chapter an ...[text shortened]... se it at its root, in linguistics and translation for then you cannot slither hither and zither.

I confessed to you. Now it is your turn to confess.

Do you confess that Jesus Christ the Lord is living in you ?

"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:7)

I confessed that my God is the man Jesus.
I also confess that this Jesus lives in me.

Does this Jesus live in you ?
Yes or No will do.

Originally posted by sonship
I confessed to you. Now it is your turn to confess.

Do you confess that Jesus Christ the Lord is living in you ?

[b]"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:7)

I confessed that my God is the man Jesus.
I ...[text shortened]... so confess that this Jesus lives in me.

Does this Jesus live in you ?
Yes or No will do.[/b]

another bent translation! typical, is there no end to your sorcery? The verse that you refer to is verse 5,

(2 Corinthians 13:5) Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are. Or do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in union with you? Unless you are disapproved.

I fully confess that I live my life in union with Jesus Christ that I may not be disapproved.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you mean the personal pronoun (I) with the verb to be in the present tense (am), hardly, there are numerous instances of it elsewhere and you dont see them falling over themselves to display their religious bias,

'I am the shepherd', 'I am the vine', all from the book of John. Is there some strange grammatical significance within these verses th ...[text shortened]... which is not that accurate usually,

'I was in existence before Abraham was born'.

Just for clarification, I thought that JW's thought that Jesus created us? If so, then why would they have a problem with Jesus saying that he existed before Abram?

Originally posted by whodey
Just for clarification, I thought that JW's thought that Jesus created us? If so, then why would they have a problem with Jesus saying that he existed before Abram?

Just for clarification, we dont have a problem with Jesus saying that he existed before Abraham, that is in fact what the verse says, what it does not say is that he is claiming as the neo platonists would have us believe, 'his own timeless existence', to say as much is nonsense and unsupported by the language of the text. To say that I have existed before someone is not the same as saying I have existed since before time, is it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
another bent translation! typical, is there no end to your sorcery? The verse that you refer to is verse 5,

(2 Corinthians 13:5) Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are. Or do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in union with you? Unless you are disapproved.

I fully confess that I live my life in union with Jesus Christ that I may not be disapproved.

Is "Jesus Christ in you " as many reputable versions of 2 Cor. 13:5 would say ?

Not only Second Corinthians 13:5 says "Jesus Christ is in you" to the "approved".
You also have:

"Christ in you the hope of glory" - Colossians 1:27

" We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him " - John 14:23

" That Christ may make His home in your hearts " - Ephesians 1:17

" But if Christ be in you ..." - Romans 8:10

" .... Christ is speaking in me ..." (2 Cor. 13:3)

" ... it pleased God to reveal His Son in me ..." (Gal. 1:15)

" I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17)

" In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)

"It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20)

"My little children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you ... " (Gal. 4:19)

"Abide in Me and I in you." (John 15:4)

And you cannot being yourself to say Jesus Christ is in you.

So you live your life in union with Michael an angel ?

Well, Jesus Christ lives in me because Jesus Christ, the last Adam, in addition to rising physically from the dead also became a divine life imparting Spirit -

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
So this last Adam, Jesus Christ, indwells me as the life giving Spirit and I confess that Jesus Christ lives in me, in addition to seeking to live "in union" with Christ.

So the New Testament says of the Christians "Christ who is our life" (Col. 3:4)

So is your life Michael the angel ? You want to live like an angel and in union with Michael the angel ?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Just for clarification, we dont have a problem with Jesus saying that he existed before Abraham, that is in fact what the verse says, what it does not say is that he is claiming as the neo platonists would have us believe, 'his own timeless existence', to say as much is nonsense and unsupported by the language of the text. To say that I have existed before someone is not the same as saying I have existed since before time, is it.

Ok. So now splain how Jesus created us but is not our God.

Just for clarification, we dont have a problem with Jesus saying that he existed before Abraham, that is in fact what the verse says,

Thankyou.

what it does not say is that he is claiming ... 'his own timeless existence',

But as He was linking His identity with the God of Exodus 3:14, He WAS speaking of His timeless existence.

Isaiah 57:15 - "For thus says the high and exalted One, Who inhabits eternity ..."

The same God as in the Exodus. He became a man.

to say as much is nonsense and unsupported by the language of the text. To say that I have existed before someone is not the same as saying I have existed since before time, is it.

Excuse me. The Bible says God existed before all time for "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1)

That is the same God Who told Moses "I AM THAT I AM". He said to tell the Hebrews that "I AM has sent me [Moses]"

"Before Abraham came into being, I am" (Recovery Version)

I AM not only means He is eternally self existing. But it also means that He is everything that we need, as the Gospel of John also portrays this One who was the Word Who became flesh.

Jehovah says that no God was formed either before Him or after Him -

"Before Me there was no God formed, Neither will there be any after Me; I, even I, am Jehovah, And there is no Savior besides Me ..." (Isa. 43:10b,11)

Originally posted by sonship

Just for clarification, we dont have a problem with Jesus saying that he existed before Abraham, that is in fact what the verse says,

Thankyou.

what it does not say is that he is claiming ... 'his own timeless existence',

But as He was linking His identity with the God of [b]Exodus 3:14, He WAS speaking of His time ...[text shortened]... , even I, am Jehovah, And there is no Savior besides Me ..." (Isa. 43:10b,11) [/b][/b]

But as He was linking His identity with the God

balderdash!