23 Jun 13
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Originally posted by Suziannenice try batman but i have provided extensive reasons, you extensive ad hominem and not a single reason, waz up, are you having a bad hairdo day?
ok, I see, so we all need to take your word for it that we have the Bible all screwed up because you 'read a book'?
Fantastic.
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That is right. Writing for the sake of others.
pretending first-born really doesn't mean first-born
Do not let Robbie persuade you that only those well versed in Plato, Socrates, and Greek philosophy can understand the New Testament rightly.
It is good to know that one book that deals heavily with the invasion of Greek philosophical ideas into the early church life is Paul's letter to the Colossians.
There Paul warns us not to worship angels (Col. 2:18) as Jehovah Witnesses have exalted Michael the angel to be the Gospel's Son of God. This is dreadful deception.
Colossians, in countering Greek philosophical ideas spoiling the Gospel, also tells us twice that the fullness of what God is dwells in Jesus Christ:
For in Him [Christ] all the fullness was pleased to dwell. (Col. 1:19)
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
Notice it does not say one third of the fullness dwells in Christ.
Notice it doesn't say 33.3333% of the fullness dwells in Christ.
All the fullness dwells in Christ "bodily".
Because Jehovah Witness hate that all the fullness dwells in Christ bodily they had to come up with a lie that the created angel Michael is Christ.
Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" because all the fullness dwells in Christ bodily and in Christ "all the fullness was pleased to dwell".
It escapes some people that God can not only express Himself as perfect authority but as perfect submission as well. And that He did in incarnation as a man.
Now to the "firstborn" complaint.
If the Word was God as John writes in his prologue then as long as God was the Word was. If God is not created then the Word is not created.
However "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14) . Now flesh had to be created BEFORE the Word could BECOME flesh. Right ? So Paul must not mean that Christ was the first created item in the universe.
However, since He is God, He becoming flesh and His incarnation into a man uplifts that creation to be highest, most significant, preeminent, and having the first place in all creation. This is how we should understand Colossians 1:15,16 -
"Who is the image of the invisible God, Firstborn of all creation, because in Him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers ... etc."
Does the book of Proverbs call Christ Wisdom and say Christ was made first ? I have met Jehovah Witnesses who claim this.
"Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, Before His works of old, I was set up from eternity, From the beginning, before the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth ... before the mountains ... I was brought forth ... etc." (Proverbs 8:22,23)
I do not doubt that this may be a personification of Christ before the creation of the universe. However, it says that God possessed this wisdom. It does not say that God created this wisdom.
As long as God existed God's wisdom also existed. Otherwise how would God HAVE the wisdom to create wisdom ? Proverbs 8 says that God possessed this wisdom in His creating of all things.
Christians should be careful though. In arguing that Christ is God, uncreated, self existing and eternal, we should not deny the incarnation of Christ as a man. That made Him cloth Himself IN creation. Man is a created being - "God created man ..." (Genesis 1:27)
So Christ is both the uncreated eternal God AND the created man. He is the mingling of God and man. "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (John 1:14) precludes that as one with flesh and blood, and as a man Christ is both uncreated God and the created man.
Has all been said? No. For length's sake I should stop here.
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Robbie complains -
pretending first-born really doesn't mean first-born
Because they want to believe that the Word was created first before all other things in creation the JWs have to have two Gods in John 1.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was [some other God]" Is how they want you to believe. Yet he protests when this is called two Gods and therefore polytheism.
I think John meant the same God the Word was WITH is the God Whom the Word WAS.
So we do not have that in the beginning God created the Word, who of course was with God then, but was ANOTHER God. That is their heresy.
Thinking this way then "Firstborn of all creation" they take to mean the first thing God created.
Now Jehovah God says that He is the First and the Last -
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel ... I am the First and I am the Last, Apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
So the Word cannot be another God that Jehovah created.
After the incarnation and after the glorious resurrection, the glorified Godman Jesus tells the Apostle John -
"And when I saw Him [the glorified Son of Man] I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last ..." (Rev. 1:17)
Now is the a First and another First ?
Is there a Last and another Last ?
Are there two Firsts - the first First and the second First?
Is there more than one Last ?
I take the verse prove Christ is Jehovah God incarnate, living, died, resurrection, and bringing that man part of His being now into eternal glory.
Look what God accomplished -
"Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (vs.17b,18)
Back to Isaiah - "And you are my witnesses. Is there a God besides Me ? Or is there any other Rock ? I do not know any." (Isaiah 44:8)
Robbie is a false witness of Jehovah for teaching that there is another created god or God who is Michael the angel, who is the Logos, and who is some secondary First and some secondary Last.
23 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipThread 153877
Robbie complains -
pretending first-born really doesn't mean first-born
Because they want to believe that the Word was created first before all other things in creation the JWs have to have two Gods in John 1.
[b]"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was [some other God]" Is how they want yo ...[text shortened]... e angel, who is the Logos, and who is some secondary First and some secondary Last.[/b]
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23 Jun 13
What about Revelation 3:14 saying that Christ is "the beginning of the creation of God" ? Doesn't that prove that Christ is the first created being ?
There are two creations of God really. There is the old creation and the new creation. The beginning of God's new creation is the resurrected Christ. Christ as the resurrected man is the beginning of the new creation.
That is what Paul says in Colossians chapter 1. In speaking of the church Paul writes:
"And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He might have the first place in all things." (Col 1:18)
The church is God joined to man. That is a new creation.
The church is God dispensed into man. That is a new creation.
The church is a Body in which the life of Christ lives and in whom He is the Head. That is a new creation.
This new creation came into existence when Jesus rose from the dead.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)
The resurrection of Christ was a major new beginning in the universe.
In the sight of God all Christians were regenerated at the time Christ rose from the dead.
In a sense I was born again first and then I was born !
From the divine viewpoint for God all the born again were born when Christ rose from the dead.
This is the beginning of the new creation. If any man be in Christ there is a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) .
The old creation consists of man under God, apart from God, though maybe knowing about God and even worshipping God, God is there and man is here.
The new creation is God dispensed into man. The new creation is God imparted into man to be man's life. The new creation is God and man in an organic union -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
This is God in man now and this is the new creation of which Christ is the Head and the believers are His Body.
I believe this is what John means - "These things says the Amen, the faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God." (Rev. 3:14)
Notice also that Paul deals with both the old creation and the new creation saying that in BOTH Christ has the first place.
1.) Old Creation - "Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him. And He is before all things, and all things cohere in Him,
2.) New Creation - "And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things. For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell."
The phrase "that He might have the first place in all things" I take to mean that in both old creation and the new creation Christ has the first place. He has the first place of preeminence in all things.
23 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipThread 153877
What about Revelation 3:14 saying that Christ is [b]"the beginning of the creation of God" ? Doesn't that prove that Christ is the first created being ?
There are two creations of God really. There is the old creation and the new creation. The beginning of God's new creation is the resurrected Christ. Christ as the resurrected man is the beginning ...[text shortened]... rist has the first place. He has the first place of preeminence in all things.[/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieLet me deal with the first paragraph.
Thread 153877
“I and the Father Are One”
THAT text, at John 10:30, is often cited to support the Trinity, even though no third person is mentioned there. But Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being “one” with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one.” Was Jesus praying that all his disciples would become a single entity? No, obviously Jesus was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were.—See also 1 Corinthians 1:10.
Instead of shrinking away from Christ's mighty prayer in John 17 we in the Lord's recovery embrace it all the more and take it at face value.
This mighty prayer of Jesus Christ is the most powerful petition in all eternity. The answer to His prayer in full is in Revelation 21 and 22. Christ actually prays here for the fulfillment of the eternal purpose of God that the Triune God would be dispensed into a corporate group of people for the producing of the New Jerusalem at the conclusion of history.
John 17:21,22 - "That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me."
But is Jesus asking that man become God ? Yes, in His communicable attributes. He is requesting that the believers "be PERFECTED" into one as is proved by verse 23 -
"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (v.23)
1.) This perfecting is a process. Jesus is praying for the consummation of the process. The end of which is the mingling of God and man.
2.) This is the same thought Jesus expressed in chapter 14 when He said that if it were NOT so that they could be like Him ... He would have TOLD them so.
"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me.
In My Father's house are many abodes; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14:1,2)
Jesus say assuring them that His mingling with the Father will also be their mingling with the Father. If it were not possible He would have told them so. His union with God will be their union with God. If it were not so He would have informed them to forget about it.
He goes to the cross (not to heaven), to prepare a place for man to get into God. Then "the Father's house" will be enlarged to be not one individual abode but "many abodes".
The singular of the same word in plural is used in verse 23 -
" ... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him."
The perfecting into one with God begins with the Father and the Son as the Holy Spirit coming to make an abode with the believers. Then the building them up in love and in the divine nature to express the Triune God until they all arrive at the measure of the stature of the Son of God. The consummation is a union of God and man.
Paul spoke also of this perfecting in this way -
" .. the building up of the Body of Christ, Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ ..." (Eph. 4:13)
The destiny of the Christians and the destiny of the church is that under the Head Christ the Body arrive by perfecting into a mutual incorporation of God and man. The Trinity is dispensed into a collective group of saved human beings.
Christ is multiplied in man, not to accomplish redemption again through them, but to be an expression of God and man mingled together -
"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:23)
Jesus was God incarnate. But God would not have this One abide alone. He died and rose to produce many grains "much fruit". They were not God from eternity. But through Christ's salvation they DO have God dispensed into their being that they may be His brothers (Roman 8:28,29) .
All has not been said. For length's sake I stop here.
23 Jun 13
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipBut is Jesus asking that man become God, your answer, Yes,
Let me deal with the first paragraph.
[quote] “I and the Father Are One”
THAT text, at John 10:30, is often cited to support the Trinity, even though no third person is mentioned there. But Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being “one” with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Fathe 28,29) .
All has not been said. For length's sake I stop here.[/b]
now where was the last time i read that, oh yes, here it is,
(Genesis 3:4, 5) At this the serpent said to the woman: “you positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God.
thanks for that i knew i had read it somewhere else.
Thread 153877
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But is Jesus asking that man become God, your answer, Yes,
In John 17 and in the entire Bible - God became man so that man might become God in life and nature but not in His Godhead.
This is God building Himself into man.
Yet in saying this I said the communicable attributes were involved.
Here are some of the matters in which man does not partake of certain non-communicable attributes of God.
1.) The saved will never become an object of worship.
2.) The saved will not become creators of universes.
3.) The saved will not become omnipresent.
4.) The saved will not become omnipotent.
5.) The saved will not become omniscient.
6.) The saved are not thus qualified to accomplish eternal redemption.
The Fatherhood of God remains the Source of this entity.
Christ remains the Head of this entity.
So when I say man becomes God according to the prayer of John 17 and the whole Bible's revelation, these few non-communicable divine attributes do not become the attributes of the saved.
But the saved are "partakers of the divine nature" (Second Peter 1:4)
But the saved are "swallowed up in life" (Second Corinthians 5:4)
But the saved are given "authority to become children of God" (John 1:12)
But the saved will become "like Him [Christ] for we shall see Him as He is." (First John 3:2)
But the saved, collectively are to be "filled unto all the fullness of God" (Eph. 3:19)
These are just a few of the other passages which echo the Lord's prayer -
"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one ..." (John 17:23) and
"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ..." (v.21)
In THIS sense I mean that God became man so that man might become God in life and nature but not in His Godhead.
now where was the last time i read that, oh yes, here it is,
(Genesis 3:4, 5) At this the serpent said to the woman: “you positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God.
thanks for that i knew i had read it somewhere else.
Here it is a matter of the method was wrong. The method Satan proposed was actually partaking of Satan.
But if God did not want man to be like God then why did He make man in His own image ?
And the putting of the created man before "the tree of life" was putting man before the possibility that God would dispense Himself into man mingling with man, building Himself into man and making man in union with Himself.
That is the meaning of "the tree of life" and not simply living everlastingly.
Jesus Christ says that now He is the life. He is the divine uncreated ZOE life of God. And Paul says the redeemed are to be "swallowed up in life" (2 Cor. 5:4) and also "filled unto all the fullness of God" (Eph. 3:19)
What IS this but Christ's salvation making God and man a mutual dwelling place. This is dispensing God into man and building man corporately into God.
You should not take Satan's temptation of Genesis 3:4,5 to mean that God did not want man to be life God. God wanted to be thoroughly united and mingled with man. But the way is God's way of partaking of Him as divine life and not by being united with Satan's rebellion.
23 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipThread 153877But is Jesus asking that man become God, your answer, Yes,
In John 17 and in the entire Bible - God became man so that man might become God in life and nature but not in His Godhead.
This is God building Himself into man.
Yet in saying this I said the communicable attributes were involved.
Here are some of the matters in whi f Him as divine life and not by being united with Satan's rebellion.
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At 1 Corinthians 3:6, 8, Paul says: “I planted, Apollos watered . . . He that plants and he that waters are one.” Paul did not mean that he and Apollos were two persons in one; he meant that they were unified in purpose. The Greek word that Paul used here for “one” (hen) is neuter, literally “one (thing),” indicating oneness in cooperation. It is the same word that Jesus used at John 10:30 to describe his relationship with his Father. It is also the same word that Jesus used at John 17:21, 22. So when he used the word “one” (hen) in these cases, he was talking about unity of thought and purpose.
In the case of God gave the growth it is a matter of God growing in the church as their life.
"I planted and Apollos waters, but God caused the growth"
Yes Apollos and Paul were one in purpose. But what is it the is GROWING ? What does Paul mean " ... but God caused the growth" ?
It is not natural growth. It is not that this year they are in their 20s and 30s and in ten years they will be in their 30s and 40s. It is not the growth of natural human life. It is the growth of God as God dispenses Himself into them. It is the spreading of God within them. It is them being more saturated and permeated with the divine nature of God filling them up with God.
What is God trying to do by growing in the saved ? He is building Himself a living temple in which He resides, is housed, and lives. This is confirmed by verse 16:
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you ? (v.16)
Therefore the apostles together in oneness sow God's life into them and water God's life in them. God in them causes the growth of His filling them up "unto all the fullness of God" for the building of His living temple - a "habitation of God in spirit".
And in this dwelling place of God in spirit, in this living temple that God is being, indeed the saved are being perfected into oneness as the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and we are in the Son.
It is more than a unity of purpose. It is a oneness of one divine Life and Person distributed into a corporate Body for the expression of God in His divine / human temple.
The Trinity builds Himself into a collective group of people for a mutual indwelling of God in man and man in God.
23 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipThread 153877
[quote] At 1 Corinthians 3:6, 8, Paul says: “I planted, Apollos watered . . . He that plants and he that waters are one.” Paul did not mean that he and Apollos were two persons in one; he meant that they were unified in purpose. The Greek word that Paul used here for “one” (hen) is neuter, literally “one (thing),” indicating oneness in cooperation. It is the ...[text shortened]... to a collective group of people for a mutual indwelling of God in man and man in God.
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In my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the word used in John 17:21,22 is indicated as Entry# 1520
I see nothing particularly forbidding an understanding of man uniting with God and God with man in this particular definition though some of the particulars I don't understand.
1520 eis [heis]; (include. the neut. (etc] ev hen a ); a prim. numeral; one: - (-n, -nv, certain), abundantly, man one (another), only, other, some. See 1527, 3367, 3391, 3762.
I see nothing in the Greek definition insisting that God and man cannot be made one as Christ the man and God are one. Such oneness would of course include purpose and intentions.
Besides the believers are said to be "one spirit with the Lord" -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
This is the same word as defined in Entry # 1520.
Think on it. God is a Spirit. And man has a human spirit. And the Christian who through redemption and regeneration is "joined to the Lord" has his human spirit and the Holy Spirit Who is God "joined" to become "ONE spirit".
That is the TWO become one mingled and united spirit. Therefore the Apostle can close all his words in the New Testament with his most important final reminder to Timothy -
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (Second Timothy 4:22)
23 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipThread 153877
In my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the word used in John 17:21,22 is indicated as Entry# 1520
I see nothing particularly forbidding an understanding of man ...[text shortened]...
1520 eis [heis]; (include. the neut. (etc] ev hen a ); a prim. numeral; one: - (-n, -nv, certain), abundantly, man one (another), only, other, some. See 1527, 3367, 3391, 3762.
[b]"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (Second Timothy 4:22) [/b]
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God becomes a living available Person as a realm in which we are attached within to the Son.
For God said He looked to live IN the right kind of man in order to find His rest, His house -
"Thus says JHVH, Heaven is My throne, And the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where is the house that you will build for Me, And where is the place of My rest? For all these things My hand has made, And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah.
But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor and of a contrite spirit and who trembles at My word." (Isaiah 66:1-2)
This means God has always sought for His temple, His house, to live in man. Christ has made this possible.