Judge Rules in "Intelligent Design" Case

Originally posted by no1marauder
Science is so cool; why waste your time with fairy tales??

Maybe Old Nick put that stuff there to trick us, just like he did with the dinosaur bones, the myth of continental drift, making it look EXACTLY like it took the Grand Canyon a real long time to form and so on.
He's a tricky bugger, Old Nick is.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Evolutionary (genetic) adaptation has been shown. Speciation has been shown. The pre-cursors to life have been created in the lab, in conditions not too dissimilar to those found on early earth. Furthermore, with these conditions in place it's statistcally almost impossible for life to [b]not evolve. It all adds up to a situation where life can ory in order to try and disprove another plausible viewpoint, and is therefore not objective.[/b]

Evolutionary (genetic) adaptation has been shown.

Circular reasoning.

Speciation has been shown.

Only if one accepts the weakest definition of species - a definition that has become looser to accommodate TOE.

The pre-cursors to life have been created in the lab,

Which supports ID as much as TOE.

in conditions not too dissimilar to those found on early earth.

We don't know the conditions of early earth - but isn't it convenient that these conditions can be produced in a lab. Hmmm.

Furthermore, with these conditions in place it's statistcally almost impossible for life to [b]not evolve.[/b]

Anything that is not impossible is possible. Stack the deck, and the odds favor TOE.

It all adds up to a situation where life can be explained without resorting to the need for a 'divine creator'.

Indeed, that is the motivation of TOE - to deny the divine. First assume there is not God, then TOE, however poor a theory, is the only straw left to cling too.

TOE is not science because:

(a) it starts at the end point, with an agenda to prove, not at the start point that science does, with a hypothesis based on observable phenomena to try and dis-prove. TOE starts with the assumption that there is no God, therefore only natural explanations are valid.

TOE (b) misuses statistics and can not be falsified because it presumes a limited world-view which invalidates any other plausible alternative such as divine intervention, and is therefore not objective.

It always surprises me the extent supposedly rational people will go to defend sloppy science. But I guess it's due to the constant indoctrination they go through growing up. It's certainly a religious fervor the drives them. I would think a truly objective person would admit the weaknesses of TOE. But if they did that, they'd be doing what most ID'ers have asked for all along. Real objectivity in science.

Originally posted by Coletti
[b/]Evolutionary (genetic) adaptation has been shown.

Circular reasoning.

Speciation has been shown.

Only if one accepts the weakest definition of species - a definition that has become looser to accommodate TOE.

The pre-cursors to life have been created in the lab,

Which supports ID as much as TOE.

in conditions not they'd be doing what most ID'ers have asked for all along. Real objectivity in science.

Coletti: TOE starts with the assumption that there is no God, therefore only natural explanations are valid.


Since your initial premise is absolutely incorrect, it's no surprise the rest of your "argument" is rubbish.

Originally posted by Coletti

Indeed, that is the motivation of TOE - to deny the divine.
Similar to this thought had been posted earlier, and the answer was anemic. If evolution were true, the closest relation to man is millions of years removed, with little or no bearing on anything relative to relevance. So why study it? Why spend so much effort, time and money on defending it, if there is no relevance to here and now?

Moreover, if it could be conclusively proven, like, oh, say, gravity, what would all those 'scientists' move on to next: something worthwhile for mankind?
If so irrefutable, then quit wasting time on it and go solve cancer. Figure out heart disease. Determine which gene mutation causes hatred/violence/lawlessness, and using selective breeding, breed it out.

The fact remains, this is a battle of thought, not science. Those attempting to prove it (and those attempting to disprove it, seen in the contemptible efforts of subversion by some of the ID-er's) are foot soldiers in the thought/power struggles, not scientists.

Originally posted by Coletti

But if they did that, they'd be doing what most ID'ers have asked for all along. Real objectivity in science.

He heh. Your posts are always good. (For a laugh.)

Originally posted by Coletti
[b]Evolutionary (genetic) adaptation has been shown.

Circular reasoning.

Speciation has been shown.

Only if one accepts the weakest definition of species - a definition that has become looser to accommodate TOE.

The pre-cursors to life have been created in the lab,

Which supports ID as much as TOE.

in conditions not ...[text shortened]... they'd be doing what most ID'ers have asked for all along. Real objectivity in science.

Back it up. I can. I want references (peer reviewed in scientific journals thank you) for everything that you say.

TOE does not assume no god. God figures nowhere in TOE.

Oh, and we've got pretty good evidence of what the world was like. Physics can give us solar output, we can use rock samples to look at atmospheric conditions etc, and can therefore work out temperature, and therefore the presence of liquid water etc. Using radiodating of asteroids we can work out roughly when bolides stopped hitting the planet, and therefore just how much geothermal disturbance there was.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Indeed, that is the motivation of TOE - to deny the divine.
Similar to this thought had been posted earlier, and the answer was anemic. If evolution were true, the closest relation to man is millions of years removed, with little or no bearing on anything relative to relevance. [i]So why study it? Why spend so much effort, time and money on defe ...[text shortened]... ion by some of the ID-er's) are foot soldiers in the thought/power struggles, not scientists.[/b]

Just because something has been proven (like TOE is accepted (almost) universally in biology) it doesn't mean we should stop studying it! Come on Freaky, with your 170+ IQ you should be able to figure that out. Evolutionary biology has got huge implications for many many aspects of human life. It explains why the world is the way it is, the distributions of organisms (e.g. why moas are geographically resticted to New Zealand for example, and the implications that had for the Maori). Evolutionary theory gives us important understandings about how genetic disease works, and why we'll never beat microbes.

Hardly of no relevance.

Originally posted by Coletti
[b]Evolutionary (genetic) adaptation has been shown.

Circular reasoning.

Speciation has been shown.

Only if one accepts the weakest definition of species - a definition that has become looser to accommodate TOE.

The pre-cursors to life have been created in the lab,

Which supports ID as much as TOE.

in conditions not they'd be doing what most ID'ers have asked for all along. Real objectivity in science.

[/b]You're just wrong with "assuming there is no God" as being a starting point of TOE.
It just calls it as it sees it.

Besides, the Creationist/IDer could just say "God meant it to be that way" if the COMPLETE fossil record was uncovered and "life was created from non-life"

EDIT: It's a "win-win" situation ...

Originally posted by scottishinnz

(like TOE is accepted (almost) universally in biology)
That should be a little troubling to an objective scientist such as yourself.
Universal acceptance in this fallen world has led to many an Inquistion in search of 'support.'

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Just because something has been proven (like TOE is accepted (almost) universally in biology) it doesn't mean we should stop studying it! Come on Freaky, with your 170+ IQ you should be able to figure that out. Evolutionary biology has got huge implications for many many aspects of human life. It explains why the world is the way it is, the distribut ...[text shortened]... about how genetic disease works, and why we'll never beat microbes.

Hardly of no relevance.

EDIT: Technical difficulties.

Originally posted by scottishinnz

Hardly of no relevance.
Of course, this begs the question. Why not study/solve some of the more immediate and relevant issues facing man, if so assured of origins?

Originally posted by KneverKnight
EDIT: Technical difficulties.

Don't get technical with us.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b](like TOE is accepted (almost) universally in biology)
That should be a little troubling to an objective scientist such as yourself.
Universal acceptance in this fallen world has led to many an Inquistion in search of 'support.'[/b]

Um, nobody is burning at the stake here.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b](like TOE is accepted (almost) universally in biology)
That should be a little troubling to an objective scientist such as yourself.
Universal acceptance in this fallen world has led to many an Inquistion in search of 'support.'[/b]

I accept evolution because (based on the knowledge I have of paleoclimate / fossil record etc) I can see how it has led to the organisms that are in the world currently. Scientists accept the theory because it can be used to make testable predictions, such as reptiles evolving into birds that was later shown to be correct by the discovery of archaeopteryx, and TOE has NEVER been disproven. Ever.

TOE doesn't lead to your 'inquisition' because people have nothing to gain (except understanding) from accepting it. Inquisitions tend to occur when someone has a vested (normally financial) interest in promoting their viewpoint.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
TOE does not assume no god. God figures nowhere in TOE.

I should have said the believers in TOE presuppose no divine intervention - thus TOE automatically rejects divine intervention.