Judge Rules in "Intelligent Design" Case

Originally posted by KellyJay
Common designer, no one has even agreed that we are looking at
a design yet! I write code for scripts at work, I like the language Perl,
for most of the stuff I do, sometimes I'll write in a shell for a quick
and dirty script. Different languages, same designer (me), and there
are others where I work that all do the same thing with greater skills
in th ...[text shortened]... d so on. ID is about design; do not make it something else, or you
change the subject.
Kelly

I agree.

Colletti, you seem so keen to promote ID. You seem keen to promote 'design' - so what is design? Explain to us what evidence you have of deisn that CANNOT be explained by evolutionary theory.

Originally posted by Coletti
In contrast to ignorant falling - which is what happens when things fall in random directions and rates?

What are the equations for "common descent"?

But engineers do design for failure. The older design method looked at deflections, but did not consider the failure point. The intelligent method considers the failure point of a design, and deflection ...[text shortened]... The TOE-ist says prove TOE is false - can't do it? so must be true. That's irrational.

In contrast to gravity. Fool.

Why do you always state that evolutionary theory is unfalsifyable? I want your reference - not this assertion (again). I, and others, have given you parameters by which evolutionary theory could not operate. Evolutionary theory IS falsifyable. ID is not falsifyable, and therefore, not science.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Why should it trip me up?

It's 'tripped' thousands of scientists up! If god's out there, and he designed all this, and he's omniscient, he must have known that people would come up with evolution. He chose to 'trip me up'.

Your point that because things look similar that's evidence of a divine creator. It is not. It is only proof that things ...[text shortened]... fically, and TOE is the most parsimonious argument. For reference see 'Occams razor'

It's 'tripped' thousands of scientists up! If god's out there, and he designed all this, and he's omniscient, he must have known that people would come up with evolution. He chose to 'trip me up'.

Lets look at this from a scriptural perspective, it says God did it the
way scripture says, you reject that and come up with something, or
agree with another that has their own views on what happen. Are you
telling me that it is God's fault for tripping you up, because you miss
read reality? No, it is your own fault if you make an error, if you look
on a table and think you see an apple when in fact it was a pear,
it wasn't the fault of the person who put the fruit on the table for
your error, it is yours for not taking the time to know what it was you
were looking at. If God is the God that scripture talks about as far
as creator and you reject the Word that tells you how it was done,
is it your fault for that rejection or God's?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]It's 'tripped' thousands of scientists up! If god's out there, and he designed all this, and he's omniscient, he must have known that people would come up with evolution. He chose to 'trip me up'.

Lets look at this from a scriptural perspective, it says God did it the
way scripture says, you reject that and come up with something, or
agree wi ...[text shortened]... that tells you how it was done,
is it your fault for that rejection or God's?
Kelly[/b]

And we fall back on the old chestnut. God did it as described in the OT and you're deceived if you don't believe it.

Why should we look at it from a 'scriptural perspective'? What does the 2000 year old creation myth of a middle eastern tribe tells us that the creation myth of any other group does not? What gives your chosen myth primacy over any other (apart from the arrogance endemic to christians)?

Do us all a favour and start considering the progress made by scientists

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]It's 'tripped' thousands of scientists up! If god's out there, and he designed all this, and he's omniscient, he must have known that people would come up with evolution. He chose to 'trip me up'.

Lets look at this from a scriptural perspective, it says God did it the
way scripture says, you reject that and come up with something, or
agree wi ...[text shortened]... that tells you how it was done,
is it your fault for that rejection or God's?
Kelly[/b]

Cmon Kelly,

It's the whole omniscience thing. He knew people would come up with evolutionary theory - otherwise he's not omniscient. He knew this and still made the universe the way it is. He could have made it any way - he IS (supposedly) god after all.

Using your apples and pears analogy - if the person painted the pear and put a sign on it saying 'apple' (which is essentially what god has done here), and you've never seen either an apple or a pear before, then the person who put the fruit there would be responsible for fooling you.

Originally posted by scottishinnz

The important thing here for you is to prove that the way the world is is as a result of god. We both know you cannot do that scientifically, and TOE is the most parsimonious argument.

Explain to us what evidence you have of deisn that CANNOT be explained by evolutionary theory.

The important thing here for you is to prove that the way the world is is as a result of god. We both know you cannot do that scientifically, and TOE is the most parsimonious argument.

Quantum mechanics may one day do this, or at least come close. 🙂

Explain to us what evidence you have of deisn that CANNOT be explained by evolutionary theory.

Consciousness. As I have stated before it is impossible to mix chemicals in a lab and produce consciousness.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]The important thing here for you is to prove that the way the world is is as a result of god. We both know you cannot do that scientifically, and TOE is the most parsimonious argument.[/b]

Quantum mechanics may one day do this, or at least come close. 🙂

Explain to us what evidence you have of deisn that CANNOT be explained by evolu ...[text shortened]... s. As I have stated before it is impossible to mix chemicals in a lab and produce consciousness.

I'd love to hear how QM going to prove that there is a god. Would you start a thread about it so that we don't hijack this thread?

Can you also explain (rather than simply state) in another thread why it is impossible for consciousness to arise from the interaction of chemicals. How do you know that consciousness is not a complex interaction of chemicals and brain matter?

Originally posted by telerion
I'd love to hear how QM going to prove that there is a god. Would you start a thread about it so that we don't hijack this thread?

Can you also explain (rather than simply state) in another thread why it is impossible for consciousness to arise from the interaction of chemicals. How do you know that consciousness is not a complex interaction of chemicals and brain matter?

I believe this discussion has popped up in several threads already. Surprised that noone has taken the time to start a new thread on the subject. Or is there such a thread already?

Originally posted by telerion
I'd love to hear how QM going to prove that there is a god. Would you start a thread about it so that we don't hijack this thread?

Can you also explain (rather than simply state) in another thread why it is impossible for consciousness to arise from the interaction of chemicals. How do you know that consciousness is not a complex interaction of chemicals and brain matter?

Ok, I don’t know if there has ever been a thread that has not been hijacked, but since this is marauder’s thread and it is off the subject I’ll start a new one. Give me a day or so.

Originally posted by stocken
I believe this discussion has popped up in several threads already. Surprised that noone has taken the time to start a new thread on the subject. Or is there such a thread already?

I haven’t noticed any. It’s probably long over due.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]The important thing here for you is to prove that the way the world is is as a result of god. We both know you cannot do that scientifically, and TOE is the most parsimonious argument.

Quantum mechanics may one day do this, or at least come close. 🙂

Explain to us what evidence you have of deisn that CANNOT be explained by evolution ...[text shortened]... s. As I have stated before it is impossible to mix chemicals in a lab and produce consciousness.

1 How will quantum mechanics offer proof of god?

2 If you are mixing chemicals on a human timescale then the results will be disappointing. If you consider the age of the earth then we have mixing occuring on a timescale which is not observable in a human lifetime.

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
And we fall back on the old chestnut. God did it as described in the OT and you're deceived if you don't believe it.

Why should we look at it from a 'scriptural perspective'? What does the 2000 year old creation myth of a middle eastern tribe tells us that the creation myth of any other group does not? What gives your chosen myth primacy over any ot ...[text shortened]... to christians)?

Do us all a favour and start considering the progress made by scientists

Excuse me, you were the one that brought up God as if He were
attempting to trick you. I simply pointed out what you were saying
by that line of reasoning. My perspective is my own, You start
saying God has been tricking you, and you think you won't get
a responce? You meantion God and or scripture I'll address your
points.

You talk to a Christains and bring up God, exactly what did you
think you were going to get? I can only give you a Christian
prepective when I give you my point of view. It isn't a matter of
arrogance, it is what it is, you talk to a Christian you get a Christian
responce. That some how suprises you, you think that is odd or
wrong?

I consider the progress scientist make, but I don't believe they always
have a grip on reality.
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Cmon Kelly,

It's the whole omniscience thing. He knew people would come up with evolutionary theory - otherwise he's not omniscient. He knew this and still made the universe the way it is. He could have made it any way - he IS (supposedly) god after all.

Using your apples and pears analogy - if the person painted the pear and put a sign on it ...[text shortened]... pear before, then the person who put the fruit there would be responsible for fooling you.

No, it isn't a painted pear and a real apple, the universe is what it
is. Your assignment of values, your view of what is real and what
is false myth doesn't change the reality you live in. It only means
that you view the universe the way you do, nothing more. He could
have made it any way He wanted, and He did, deal with it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, it isn't a painted pear and a real apple, the universe is what it
is. Your assignment of values, your view of what is real and what
is false myth doesn't change the reality you live in. It only means
that you view the universe the way you do, nothing more. He could
have made it any way He wanted, and He did, deal with it.
Kelly

Maybe the world is the way it is. Maybe god made it that way. If he did, he chose to make it in a way that HE MUST HAVE KNOWN WOULD LEAD PEOPLE TO COME UP WITH EVOLUTIONARY THEORY. In that case, he DID trick people (if evolution isn't true).

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Maybe the world is the way it is. Maybe god made it that way. If he did, he chose to make it in a way that HE MUST HAVE KNOWN WOULD LEAD PEOPLE TO COME UP WITH EVOLUTIONARY THEORY. In that case, he DID trick people (if evolution isn't true).

Trick or faith? You buy into the theory you have never seen do the
things you say to the degree you say happens, and when it is pointed
out to you...you refuse to acknowledge this and call into quesiton the
thing you do put your faith into. It is what you want here, the truth is
there no matter what. God isn't tricking anyone, you want to refuse
to acknowledge what is there and what isn't, you get what you want
and you will live and die with the results. As we all do with all of our
choices.
Kelly