Leaving the OSAS camp

Originally posted by sonship
Maybe you do not understand them because of a carnal and spiritually immature natural mind which smothers your ability to discern truly spiritual matters.

[b]"But a soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them because they are discerned spiritually." ( 1 Cor. 2:14)

...[text shortened]... ave you ever gone to God and said "God maybe I am just UNABLE to understand this kind of talk" ?[/b]

You never listen do you.

Originally posted by divegeester
You never listen do you.

This is a very sparse comment. You can elaborate on what it is you think Rajk999 is speaking that I am not listening to.

I just listened to him call "garbage" a few reasonable questions about this passage:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast.

For we are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand in order that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:8-10)

I listened quite intently to Rajk999 refer to my explaining and questions as "garbage". If you think I missed something crucial, you can tell me what I didn't listen to.

What I HEAR is a man who does not just say "good works" are important. I would agree with that completely. What I HEAR is him saying that we are SAVED by our good works.

You say "you never listen do you [?]"


If there is something else in this thread you think I am not listening to, tell me what you think it is.

Originally posted by sonship
This is a very sparse comment. You can elaborate on what it is you think Rajk999 is speaking that I am not listening to.

I just listened to him call "garbage" a few reasonable questions about this passage:

[b]"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast.
...[text shortened]... is something else in this thread you think I am not listening to, tell me what you think it is.

I was commenting on the comments by Rak999 in this thread about you writing long convoluted posts, not specifically their content.

Originally posted by divegeester
I was commenting on the comments by Rak999 in this thread about you writing long convoluted posts, not specifically their content.

Oh. It was confusing because it looked like a response to my post.

Originally posted by sonship
Oh. It was confusing because it looked like a response to my post.

So after all that verbage, OSAS says if you are saved, now you can think, oh goody, now I can murder that village I have hated so long. Then grabs a machine gun and kills 200 people. He is still saved?

Originally posted by sonhouse
So after all that verbage, OSAS says if you are saved, now you can think, oh goody, now I can murder that village I have hated so long. Then grabs a machine gun and kills 200 people. He is still saved?

The killer was never saved...His nature never changed..

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The killer was never saved...His nature never changed..

So you dont know who is saved and who is not... obviously.
Then later on you will claim to know who is saved.
Then you will say you believe in once saved always saved.
But someone like sonhouse or me will ask the right question.
Then you will admit that you dont know who is saved and who is saved.
Then later on you will claim to know who is saved.
Then you will say you believe in once saved always saved.
But someone like sonhouse or me will ask the right question.
Then you will admit that you dont know who is saved and who is saved.Then later on you will claim to know who is saved.
Then you will say you believe in once saved always saved.
But someone like sonhouse or me will ask the right question.
Then you will admit that you dont know who is saved and who is saved.Then later on you will claim to know who is saved.
Then you will say you believe in once saved always saved.
But someone like sonhouse or me will ask the right question.
Then you will admit that you dont know who is saved and who is saved.

Your entire doctrine is a merrygoround,

Originally posted by sonship to Rajk999
I don't know what you think sarcasm will do for your case.

His sarcasm created some variety maybe. As far as this issue goes, speaking as an interested onlooker, I reckon Rajk999 has you beaten in debating terms, while not believing what either of you is saying is actually "true". 😀

Originally posted by Rajk999
So you dont know who is saved and who is not... obviously.
Then later on you will claim to know who is saved.
Then you will say you believe in once saved always saved.
But someone like sonhouse or me will ask the right question.
Then you will admit that you dont know who is saved and who is saved.
Then later on you will claim to know who is saved.
Then ...[text shortened]... admit that you dont know who is saved and who is saved.

Your entire doctrine is merrygoround,

I never said I know who is saved, I see by their fruit and actions if they are.
I also know if the Lord reveals something to me personally.
What I am saying is someone who kills people in the scenario stated above is not a believer following after the spirit.

Originally posted by FMF
His sarcasm created some variety maybe. As far as this issue goes, speaking as an interested onlooker, I reckon Rajk999 has you beaten in debating terms, while not believing what either of you is saying is actually "true". 😀

He is not going to like that comment. Maybe if he had the ability to condense his thoughts he would be a better writer. Some of the greatest writers are found in New Testament in my opinion.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I never said I know who is saved, I see by their fruit and actions if they are.
I also know if the Lord reveals something to me personally.
What I am saying is someone who kills people in the scenario stated above is not a believer following after the spirit.

SO obviously you cannot believe in this doctrine called 'once saved always saved', can you? I have tried for years to get you to admit that.

The reason why is if as you say you need to see by their fruit and their actions if they are saved, then that takes a lifetime. But the doctrine of OSAS says that a person is IMMEDIATELY saved and saved eternally, upon accepting Christ with their mouth, and cannot lose their their salvation for any reason.

If you need to observe a person actions then you cannot believe in OSAS.

Originally posted by Rajk999
SO obviously you cannot believe in this doctrine called 'once saved always saved', can you? I have tried for years to get you to admit that.

The reason why is if as you say you need to see by their fruit and their actions if they are saved, then that takes a lifetime. But the doctrine of OSAS says that a person is IMMEDIATELY saved and saved eternally, ...[text shortened]... ion for any reason.

If you need to observe a person actions then you cannot believe in OSAS.

I can be fooled at times . But I still believe a person filled with the spirit of God who is truly born again cannot lose his/her salvation with one exception.
This I do not fully understand, but I am told that a believer can renounce the Lord Jesus and his salvation.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I can be fooled at times . But I still believe a person filled with the spirit of God who is truly born again cannot lose his/her salvation with one exception.
This I do not fully understand, but I am told that a believer can renounce the Lord Jesus and his salvation.

The reason why you 'do not fully understand' is because you are placing the teachings of men above what the Bible says very very clearly. And this 'one exception' business means you are trying to play God. The Bible says nothing about one exception. You are very confused.

Let me help you. Let go of man's doctrine. Let go of what the pastor in your church says. Forget what the fallible men around you say. Listen to the Bible:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26 KJV)

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)

Originally posted by Rajk999

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

Look at these words -

"It is impossible ... to renew them again unto repentence."

The Gospel of John contains multiple passages on how a person receives eternal life.

Find the word "repentance" or "repent" or "repented" ANYWHERE in the Gospel of John.

I did NOT say, "Christians should not repent. Christians should not ever be in repentance. Repentance is never needed. Repentance is not important to God."

Do no jump to that conclusion. What I ask is for you to locate the word "repentance" or "repent" or "repented" in the Gospel of John, a Gospel, mind you, where the closest disciple of Jesus repeatedly explains how one receives the eternal life.

If John never speaks of repentance as a requirement to receive eternal life how do you know that "It is impossible ... to renew them again unto repentance" HAS to and only can mean that eternal life was taken away from a believer ? This question is opened to anyone with a serious reply.

I have already explained that what is burned up in connection to the backsliders in Hebrews 6:7 are the works symbolized by vegatation growing out of the ground.

"For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivate, partakes of blessing from God.

But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned." (6:7,8)

The Corinthian letter already informed us that some worthless works, symbolized as "wood, grass, stubble" will be burned up. Yet the Christian will be saved yet so as through fire.

"But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble,

the work of each will become manifest; for the day wil declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.

If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:12-15)

In Hebrews 6 "near a curse" and the vegetation whose "end is to be burned" corresponds to "suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" in First Corinthians chapter three.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The reason why you 'do not fully understand' is because you are placing the teachings of men above what the Bible says very very clearly. And this 'one exception' business means you are trying to play God. The Bible says nothing about one exception. You are very confused.

Let me help you. Let go of man's doctrine. Let go of what the pastor in your churc ...[text shortened]... ave known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)[/i]

You are the one who does not understand. Yes you quote verses to suit what you believe, but you do not understand what you are reading.
Your problem is to try and harmonize those verses which you just mentioned with the ones that clearly say that a born again Christian cannot lose their salvation.
Here are a couple...
Rom 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
NKJV

Eph 2:4-10
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

How can (in God's mind) we be seated(notice past tense) in the heavenly places, if we lose our salvation?
Try to reconcile this verse with your religion....
Phil 1:6-7
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
NKJV

I am confident that what God has promised he will not fail to do.