Logical God?

Originally posted by whodey
But the Biblical God also punishes to help people stop from sinning. The Bible says that whom he loves he corrects just as a parent with a rod in hand. However, some do not heed such correction. Some continue in their wicked ways and wax worse and worse. This is problematic in that such wickedness has influence and sway over those who are exposed to it or ...[text shortened]... a for corrective action, not the spiritual realm. Its known in the Bible as a the era of grace.

response to paragraph 1
In the Bible, most of the recorded punishments meted out by God are unjust, while the 'corrective' punishments are presented only in the abstract; there are few recorded instances of God punishing in merely a parental manner. His favorite punishment is death in the OT and hell in the NT.

Just think of all these:
- Moses almost gets killed by God because he did not circumcise his son in time.
- 70,000 Israelites are killed because David takes a census of them (why exactly is this wrong??)
- David's child dies because it was the product of adultery (The innocent child dies, while guilty dad goes free? And Christians claim that God is 'pro-life'?? 🙄 )
- Job has all his servants and family murdered/killed/maimed for punishment (oh, wait, he was innocent; it was all just God's pissing contest with the devil!)
- Ananias and Sapphirah killed for 'lying to God' (wonder how many would drop dead in American churches for claiming to tithe when they don't)

And I could go on and on. I think these examples trump any examples of 'just' punishment you could give me, especially since your God allegedly practices perfect justice.

response to paragraph 2
The word 'if' denotes a hypothetical. Please re-read my post, keeping this in mind.

response to paragraph 3
I'm not sure why you think this is a matter of opinion. Eternal punishment in hell is unjust, because 100 years of continuous evil is still a whisper in the wind compared to an infinite time span of torture.

Why should I accept your assertion that people cannot change once they reach the spiritual realm? Didn't Lucifer change into Satan while in the spiritual realm?

To call this brief 100-year life of ours an 'era' is practically sarcasm. What is 100 years compared to infinity? Even the Bible says our life here is but a vapor. Does it make sense to have one's eternal fate decided by what they did during this pitiful sliver of existence? It's such an unrepresentative sample.

Originally posted by josephw
Only man punishes the innocent.
It is only your opinion that the bible has lies in it.
The bible is the most widely published book in the world.

Originally posted by josephw

Only man punishes the innocent.

Could you tell me what happened to all those innocent unborn infants during the great flood? Did they survive that flood? Was it, or was it not, God who flooded the whole world, and eventually drown everybody (safe for Noah and his family members) including those unborn infants?

It is only your opinion that the bible has lies in it.

Does it not strike you as at least strange that the contents of the bible defy logic and common sense in some ways?

The bible is the most widely published book in the world.

I am a great fan of Agatha Christie, the greatest crime mystery writer (in my opinion) of all time. In particular, I am a fan of Hercule Poirot. Her books have been translated into, I believe, 44 languages, although I am not really sure of the accuracy of this. To date, over a billion copies of her books have been printed and published worldwide. But the contents of all her books are fictions only...

Originally posted by kirksey957
I find it so frustrating when someone makes a point that is very reasonable and rational and has no attacking agenda and yet it is dismissed because they don't understand the Holy Spirit like someone else does.

I just hope one day I will be good enough.

Why did Jesus say He needed to so that the Holy Spirit would come?
Kelly

Originally posted by amannion
Of course it is.
Rationalise it how you will but you can neither logically deny God's existence or logically prove that it exists. I think the history of philosophy draws that conclusion out ... dare I say, logically?

Of course you can logically deny god's existence, what are you talking about?

Here's one way: If he exists, god is a supernatural entity. We are natural entities. We have no known supernatural sensory equipment. Therefore, we could never know of god's existence. Logically therefore, the bible is a work of fiction and all subsequent belief is falsely placed. In the face of a lack of evidence for god it is most parsimonious to deny a belief in such a concept.

Originally posted by jaywill
You are perhaps reasoning without taking to account that the Holy Spirit illuminates portions of Scripture to human hearts in a way appropriate to them.

We do not only have the word of God. We have also the Spirit of God behind the word of God. And the Spirit of God illuminates approppriate light and truth to each individual personally.

We have t ...[text shortened]... culties? No, God is not. He is able to navigagte the truth seeker whose hearts is opened to Him.

Apparently the Spirit doesn't think the Bible is appropriate to me at all.

Originally posted by josephw
Then you have no objection to third graders reading "Heather has two mommies"?

Without the Holy Spirit, this cannot be understood at all.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why did Jesus say He needed to so that the Holy Spirit would come?
Kelly

He needed to what?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why did Jesus say He needed to so that the Holy Spirit would come?
Kelly

are u refering to his death then the spirit came latter so all heard the scripture in his own tounge. if this is the question then this is also the answer he left to send the spirit to help the early followers latter to be called christians. other than that why is this a problem with this part of scripture.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
response to paragraph 1
In the Bible, most of the recorded punishments meted out by God are unjust, while the 'corrective' punishments are presented only in the abstract; there are few recorded instances of God punishing in merely a parental manner. His favorite punishment is death in the OT and hell in the NT.

Just think of all these:
- M uring this pitiful sliver of existence? It's such an unrepresentative sample.

May I remind you that we are all dying as well as those people whom you mentioned in the Bible who had died or almost died. Some are merely dying faster as a result of continued sin. The more drugs/sex/stealing/lying you do the greater chances of you kicking the bucket sooner than later.

I suppose you view man dying in the first place because he sinned in the garden of Eden as unfair as well? However, if you consider the fact that Adam was warned probably has no bearing on the "fairness" in your mind. Also consider that by all rights God had the right to extinguish man altogether but allowed man to continue to live despite man's rebellion. If you look at it from this perspective, any good thing man recieved from God after the fall is soley a result of his mercy and grace towards mankind.

You said you thought that it was also unfair that man's lifespan is so short. You are correct, our lives are but a vapor in the wind in comparison to eternrity. However, God tried it another way in the Bible. If you notice the lifespans of men before the flood, men lived to be about 1,000 years old before they died. However, man became so wicked that God deemed it necessry to wipe them out save a few and start over again. God then limited mans lifespan to about 100 years after the flood was over. Could you imagine the evil such men as Hilter could inflict in the world today if he were allowed to live a 1000 years? He only lived about 50 years and had the entire world engulfed in a world war while murdering millions upon millions as well.

If you really want to talk about fair, what about the righteous men in the Bible who died for being righteous and followers of God? How about all of God's prophets who were stoned and killed in various ways because the people did not like what they had to say? What about ALL of Christs disciples, save one, who were martyred in horrible ways due to the fact they preached the gospel? What about Christ himself who never sinned and was tortured and killed? I think you will find that the concept of "fair" is somewhat abstract in relation to ones own personal perspective. The bottom line is that sin brings suffering and death. Everybody suffers and dies to various degrees. It is only a question of whether or not we continue to spend an eternity suffering and dying by choosing to reject God.

I am glad you brough up the story of Job. Here we see things from a different perspective in relation to suffering and dying. Here we see the devil coming to cause suffering and death rather than the Almighty. This occurs as God merely withdrawls himself from Job rather than inflicting such horror himself. So if we reject God, he will withdraw from us. After all, he gave you free will and will respect such free will. If you view God as our source of life and protection, what is left for us when he withdraws himself from us? Granted, Job did not reject God when God withdrew himself from him, however, God did not abandon Job either and restored to him 7 fold what had been taken from him for his faithfulness. When Job was at his lowest point, his wife asked him why he did not curse God and die. I suppose you would agree with her? Job's response to his wife was that such thinking was foolishness. God is all there is and all we really ever have. Without him, what is there? So what would be accomplished by cursing him even though you may not understand his ways which seem illogical to you. As believers, we ALL have peroids of suffering and loss because we live in a sinful world. Do we then abandon God in the process who is our only source of protection and comfort and who promises us paradise when our this life or turmoil ends?

Chist once said that those who love thier own lives more than him were not worthy of him. Sounds kinda harsh no? The root of this teaching is the greatest commandment in the Bible which is to love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind. After all, all that you are and all that you have is a result of his grace and mercy and a gift to you. Therefore, all that you loose is not really yours to begin with so when you die you are simply being returned to its rightful owner. From such a perspective you might say that hell is a type of willful theft.

In response to the comment of things not being able to change in the spiritual realm, this statement was merely in observation that all Biblical examples of spiritual beings who have fallen seems to result in immediate damnation without any examples of them being able to or desiring to reverse their eternal fates. It was a statement of obesrvation rather than Biblical doctrine. This is why it is important to say what the Bible says rather than what you may assume. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by whodey
May I remind you that we are all dying as well as those people whom you mentioned in the Bible who had died or almost died. Some are merely dying faster as a result of continued sin. The more drugs/sex/stealing/lying you do the greater chances of you kicking the bucket sooner than later.

I suppose you view man dying in the first place because he sinned nt to say what the Bible says rather than what you may assume. Sorry for the confusion.

May I remind you that we are all dying as well as those people whom you mentioned in the Bible who had died or almost died. Some are merely dying faster as a result of continued sin. The more drugs/sex/stealing/lying you do the greater chances of you kicking the bucket sooner than later.

In my examples, God did not just sit back and let sin or nature take its course. He reached down and snuffed out life in an instant.

I suppose you view man dying in the first place because he sinned in the garden of Eden as unfair as well?

I don't think it is reasonable to expect Adam and Eve to make an informed decision about eating from the tree when they have no idea what death really means. They'd never seen anyone or anything die before. They'd never experienced the loss of a loved one.

Also consider that by all rights God had the right to extinguish man altogether but allowed man to continue to live despite man's rebellion.

Did he really have that right? I'm not sure. There's a reason we have things like laws against animal cruelty and protection for endangered species - we are uneasy with the idea that more powerful beings are allowed to kill or harm less powerful beings at whim. You can't shoot your dog just because he doesn't come when you call him.

You said you thought that it was also unfair that man's lifespan is so short.

No, I didn't say that. I said it is unreasonable to sentence someone to heaven or hell for eternity based on things they did during their earthly life, which is a minuscule fraction of eternity.

If you really want to talk about fair, what about the righteous men in the Bible who died for being righteous and followers of God? How about all of God's prophets who were stoned and killed in various ways because the people did not like what they had to say? What about ALL of Christs disciples, save one, who were martyred in horrible ways due to the fact they preached the gospel? What about Christ himself who never sinned and was tortured and killed?

What about them? I was talking about people God killed, not people man killed.

I think you will find that the concept of "fair" is somewhat abstract in relation to ones own personal perspective.

If you press Ctrl-F on the page, you will find that I did not once use the word 'fair' in my last post. I was talking about 'justice', which is not the same thing.

The bottom line is that sin brings suffering and death. Everybody suffers and dies to various degrees. It is only a question of whether or not we continue to spend an eternity suffering and dying by choosing to reject God.

Too simplistic. You're again ignoring my examples. Innocent people got killed by God. What was their sin?

Shall we allow people to kill others who have wronged them? After all, sin brings death, right?

I am glad you brough up the story of Job. Here we see things from a different perspective in relation to suffering and dying. Here we see the devil coming to cause suffering and death rather than the Almighty.

Except for that bit about fire from heaven devouring and killing people. Last time I checked, the Bible claimed God was in charge of heaven.

As for the rest, there is a moral obligation to prevent suffering if one has the means to do so. Since Satan could not do a single thing without God's permission (it would have been trivial for God to stop Satan), God must share the blame for Satan's actions.

When driving, I'm not allowed to run over a pedestrian just because I have the right-of-way. If I have time to stop, I must do so.

So if we reject God, he will withdraw from us.

That's not what happened. Job was loyal to God. God "withdrew" from him despite that loyalty.

When Job was at his lowest point, his wife asked him why he did not curse God and die. I suppose you would agree with her?

If one believed in God, and such things happened to them, I could understand their anger.

Job's response to his wife was that such thinking was foolishness. God is all there is and all we really ever have. Without him, what is there?

Reason. Sanity. Justice. Compassion.

The God you speak of is the primary source of human misery, if he exists. Not only has he killed more humans that anyone else in history, he, as Mark Twain points out, is the designer and creator of all manner of diseases like smallpox, black plague, typhoid, etc. etc. that have ravaged mankind over the years.

So what would be accomplished by cursing him even though you may not understand his ways which seem illogical to you.

Why would I curse a fictional character?

Chist once said that those who love thier own lives more than him were not worthy of him. Sounds kinda harsh no? The root of this teaching is the greatest commandment in the Bible which is to love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind.

This will sound blasphemous to you, but any person who claims to be the source of love and the advocate of compassion, and yet belies those teachings by their murderous and harmful actions, is not worthy of my belief.

After all, all that you are and all that you have is a result of his grace and mercy and a gift to you. Therefore, all that you loose is not really yours to begin with so when you die you are simply being returned to its rightful owner.

If that's true, it demolishes the notion of the intrinsic value of human life. We are forbidden to murder, not because others have a right to live, but because we are not allowed to harm God's property.

From such a perspective you might say that hell is a type of willful theft.

That sounds like a warped perspective. Nobody would willingly choose hell. Nobody would choose to stay in hell if given the chance to leave. Given the choice of:
a) stay in the room; someone pulls all your fingernails off with a rusty pair of pliers
b) leave the room

I bet you can't find one person that will actually go through with a) and stay in the room until they lose all ten fingernails.

You're forgetting that the Bible specifically states that God alone has the power to cast the body and soul into hell. (It's kind of hard to steal anything from an all-powerful being, isn't it?!)

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
[b]May I remind you that we are all dying as well as those people whom you mentioned in the Bible who had died or almost died. Some are merely dying faster as a result of continued sin. The more drugs/sex/stealing/lying you do the greater chances of you kicking the bucket sooner than later.

In my examples, God did not just sit back and let si ...[text shortened]... to steal anything from an all-powerful being, isn't it?!)[/b]

You are correct that God has intervened in the past to "kill" people. However, have you ever considered the fact that he has just cause to do so? One of your examples of taking a census may seem harmless on the surface, however, God sees what can happen down the road when apparent "harmless" actions are taken that people are commanded not to. Perhaps such harmless actions will result in catastrophic consequences. Who is to say but God because he sees what will happen in the future if steps are not taken to prevent unwanted scenerios from unfolding. This is what I am talking about in terms of being unable to understand the logic of God.

The example of Adam in the garden is another excellent example of what I am talking about. You say it is unreasonable for Adam and Eve to make an informed decision about what they did not comprehend or perhaps could not comprehend due to their sinless nature. Now we sit back and see the result of their "harmless" act. Their will ALWAYS be seemingly "harmless" acts we are commanded not to do that we may not see the reasons behind. This is because God sees all and we see only in part. This is why faith is so important. Without trusting in God at all times and placing our faith in what he says we are essentially walking blind at times.

Originally posted by whodey
You are correct that God has intervened in the past to "kill" people. However, have you ever considered the fact that he has just cause to do so? One of your examples of taking a census may seem harmless on the surface, however, God sees what can happen down the road when apparent "harmless" actions are taken that people are commanded not to. Perhaps such ...[text shortened]... l times and placing our faith in what he says we are essentially walking blind at times.

Use your imagination. Tell me what dire thing might come about from King David taking a census of Israel. It should be worse than the loss of 70,000 lives.

If you are content to accept that God might have justification for his many killings without knowing what that justification is, you have conceded the point made by the General Argument from Evil, namely, that you must believe in a doctrine without knowing its contents.

Sorry, but I don't buy the whole line about original sin. It makes zero sense that all humans should be condemned for a 'mistake' made by the first two of them. Perhaps you can find an example with more tangible consequences.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Use your imagination. Tell me what dire thing might come about from King David taking a census of Israel. It should be worse than the loss of 70,000 lives.

If you are content to accept that God might have justification for his many killings without knowing what that justification is, you have conceded the point made by the General Argument from Evi ...[text shortened]... de by the first two of them. Perhaps you can find an example with more tangible consequences.

I have discussed and debated this same issue with whodey before in other posts. And I am still inclined to agree with BigDogg here. What could be worse than drowing all those unborn foetuses in the great flood? That's why I just shook my head and smiled to myself when I saw how hard Kelly J and others tried to condemn abortion. God did much worse than that; he killed both the unborn infants and mothers on a grand scale.

Originally posted by kirksey957
He needed to what?

Sorry, both typing and eye sight failed me there.
Why did Jesus say he needed to 'go', so that the Holy Spirit would come?
Kelly

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
[b]May I remind you that we are all dying as well as those people whom you mentioned in the Bible who had died or almost died. Some are merely dying faster as a result of continued sin. The more drugs/sex/stealing/lying you do the greater chances of you kicking the bucket sooner than later.

In my examples, God did not just sit back and let si ...[text shortened]... to steal anything from an all-powerful being, isn't it?!)[/b]

This is a long post.