Logical God?

Originally posted by stoker
are u refering to his death then the spirit came latter so all heard the scripture in his own tounge. if this is the question then this is also the answer he left to send the spirit to help the early followers latter to be called christians. other than that why is this a problem with this part of scripture.

I do not limit the Spirit of God (Holy Ghost) only being here for a limited time just to help the early followers. You have some reason for such a short time in human history?
Kelly

Originally posted by ckoh1965
I have discussed and debated this same issue with whodey before in other posts. And I am still inclined to agree with BigDogg here. What could be worse than drowing all those unborn foetuses in the great flood? That's why I just shook my head and smiled to myself when I saw how hard Kelly J and others tried to condemn abortion. God did much worse than that; he killed both the unborn infants and mothers on a grand scale.

Have you ever considered how killing only one person can potentially be seen as aborting generations and generations of people? The bottom line is that if that person is wicked in the sight of God they will be dealt with. Unfortunatly all the offspring they could have produced will also be effected whether or not they have unborn offspring or future offspring that would have been concieved. I think you will find that sin not only effects the sinner, but also those who are innocent of that sin. Just look at what happened to Christ. He was innocent as well.

Originally posted by whodey
Have you ever considered how killing only one person can potentially be seen as aborting generations and generations of people? The bottom line is that if that person is wicked in the sight of God they will be dealt with. Unfortunatly all the offspring they could have produced will also be effected whether or not they have unborn offspring or future offspri ...[text shortened]... e who are innocent of that sin. Just look at what happened to Christ. He was innocent as well.

Have you ever considered how killing only one person can potentially be seen as aborting generations and generations of people?

So could onanism. And menstruation.

Just look at what happened to Christ. He was innocent as well.

How do you know this? Because the bible tells you. And how do you know the bible is correct? Because the bible tells you.

Originally posted by whodey
Have you ever considered how killing only one person can potentially be seen as aborting generations and generations of people? The bottom line is that if that person is wicked in the sight of God they will be dealt with. Unfortunatly all the offspring they could have produced will also be effected whether or not they have unborn offspring or future offspri ...[text shortened]... e who are innocent of that sin. Just look at what happened to Christ. He was innocent as well.

I am not talking about what 'could have been'. I don't want to see so far into the future. Indeed the abortion of a foetus may mean erasing out the possibility of 'what could have come' beyond the life of that foetus.

Let us be simple, I've said before that if I find that my unborn child has some sort of irremediable disease that would render him/her becoming a vegetable, I would most likely want to abort the pregnancy. It won't be an easy decision to make, but I will make that decision in the end. I can't bear the thought that I knowingly cause hardship sufferring to continue to happen. But you religious people are against it!

Now you are saying that God sees sufferrings or whatever bad things that would happen to the world; so he wipe out these unborn infants. But it is OK for God to do it, because he knows all. He can see better than us. Think about it for a minute. Be honest to yourself. Do you really thing that people will buy such an explanation?

And the second comment I want to make is this thing about God wiping out the entire population because he sees bad things that some would cause to others. If that is indeed the justification for killing on a grand scale, then I must say, it is a stupid way of dealing with the problem! According to you, God knows everything; he can do everything. He would most probably be able to kill selectively. Spare the innocents, kill only the bad ones. Maybe if we are talking about humans with limited abilities, that would be very hard to do. But God is supposed to be almighty. I can select in a heart-beat where the rotten apples are, and immediately eliminate them! There is no need for God to take the 'lazy' way out by simply wiping out everyone from the face of the earth. If Hitler is the trouble-maker, then strike him alone with lightning or something. Why kill everyone else too?

"I think you will find that sin not only effects the sinner, but also those who are innocent of that sin."

Why!? Why should the innocents bear the consequences for the misdeeds of the sinners? Is that how God demonstrates that he is just and loving?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
[b]I am not talking about what 'could have been'. I don't want to see so far into the future. Indeed the abortion of a foetus may mean erasing out the possibility of 'what could have come' beyond the life of that foetus.

You may not want to see into the future, however, God does see into the future and must see into the future if he is to effectivly govern his creation. It may be hard to fathom but God conceived you in his mind before the beginning of the universe. Therefore, God invisioned your life having a purpose of some kind long before you became a viable entity. This means killing off one of your distant relatives or killing you off in the womb or killing you off after you were born has implications regarding your existence and the purpose for such an existance. This is why it is bad for man to play God with such things as abortion. Only God can make such decisions because it is his plan that is effected.

Originally posted by ckoh1965

Let us be simple, I've said before that if I find that my unborn child has some sort of irremediable disease that would render him/her becoming a vegetable, I would most likely want to abort the pregnancy. It won't be an easy decision to make, but I will make that decision in the end. I can't bear the thought that I knowingly cause hardship sufferring to continue to happen. But you religious people are against it!

But you are playing God in such examples. You cannot see into the future as God can yet you want to play the role and ASSUME that snuffing out a life is what is best for the child and for everyone else for that matter. I say that only God knows.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
[Now you are saying that God sees sufferrings or whatever bad things that would happen to the world; so he wipe out these unborn infants. But it is OK for God to do it, because he knows all. He can see better than us. Think about it for a minute. Be honest to yourself. Do you really thing that people will buy such an explanation?

So how could God allow the innocent unborn children to perish? This is one delimma many believers have. This delimma is how can God let bad things happen to good people? Can't God protect the innocent from the sinners? There are some delimmas, however. We are all sinners. Therefore, if he were to destroy all sin you would be in line for such destruction. Also, if the innocent who never sinned, such as Christ himself, were to be isolated and protected from all sinners, what earthly good would Christ have been for those sinners whom mistreated him?

Those who are innocent and sinless such as the unborn have nothing to fear from the Almighty. They will not perish. In reality, you could say that they are being spared the evil their parents would expose them to and possibly perish. Why then is abortion so bad you may say?. It is because God has a purpose for every innocent soul in the world which is to reach out to the sinner who is perishing. Who is to say what that innocent soul is capable of becoming or possibly being a blessing to future generations in this regard except for God himself? If God were to block off completly the righteous from the unrighteous God may as well give up on the unrighteous and just kill them off now and get it over with, however, God has not given up completly on those who are sinners. He still loves them and is why the righteous live amongst the unrighteous even though they may suffer at their hands as a result. You see love may choose pain over allowing the hopeless to remain hopeless.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
And the second comment I want to make is this thing about God wiping out the entire population because he sees bad things that some would cause to others. If that is indeed the justification for killing on a grand scale, then I must say, it is a stupid way of dealing with the problem! According to you, God knows everything; he can do everything. He woul ouble-maker, then strike him alone with lightning or something. Why kill everyone else too?

So God could only kill the bad ones? What qualifies someone as being "bad"? So you can spot these "bad apples" yourself? With all due respect, I think God to be better qualified for knowing what is in the hearts of men than yourself. It is often hard to even ascertain what is in your own heart let alone what is in the heart of your fellow man.

Also, if you knock off someone like Hitler or Sadam, who then takes his place? Would it not be a clone within their repective regimes who would probably be just as bad if not worse than themselves? Also, perhaps it is not just one or two people who need to be dealt with? After all, they did not come to power on their own. They needed help and lots of it. Perhaps there is a wide group of people that need to be dealt with that supported them in coming to power or who just sat by and allowed them to come to power?

There is also one more thing to consider. Perhaps God wishes to extend his grace to these "bad apples" that other mortals have given up on as evil? Perhaps he wishes to extend to them every oppurtunity to repent as he deems possible? We tend to think of complicated issues such as this in such simplistic ways, however, if there be a God you must admit such affairs must be extremely complicated. Especially while attempting to preserve free will which he chose to give us, even for those who you consider to be "bad apples".

Originally posted by whodey
So God could only kill the bad ones? What qualifies someone as being "bad"? So you can spot these "bad apples" yourself? With all due respect, I think God to be better qualified for knowing what is in the hearts of men than yourself. It is often hard to even ascertain what is in your own heart let alone what is in the heart of your fellow man.

Also, if ...[text shortened]... free will which he chose to give us, even for those who you consider to be "bad apples".

What I meant to say was that I of course can't tell which are the 'bad apples'. But your god surely can tell? He can very easily strike a lightning on Hitler. Then the next crook comes into power. Remove him too. If someone else tries to be funny and want to conquer the world, well, then kill him off too. Surely that must be much simpler for god, but of course not us humans. It doesn't really matter if there are thousands such criminals or crooks in this world. God could quite easily kill all of them off. That is a straight forward and much simpler approach if god really wanted to rid the world of hardship and sufferings.

Yes, granted, maybe god has his justification for his acts of killing innocent people. But you started this thread with the title: Logical God. Well, I am saying to you that god is being illogical in his approach. Maybe that's because there are things that we do not see that god sees as you claim. Maybe if we could see too, then it would seem absolutely logical to us too. But since we don't get any justification from god, we see no logic in his actions.

You are speculating that god must have a very good reason and justification for his actions, because that seems to be the only explanation for the discrepancy between his trigger-happy wreckless killing, and those so-called good qualities that he commands of us all. We have no evidence that he has any justification at all. You are only deducing that there must be one strictly on the strength of faith. But after all has been said and done, you must admit that there is just no logic in god's actions, at least not humanly logical.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
What I meant to say was that [b]I of course can't tell which are the 'bad apples'. But your god surely can tell? He can very easily strike a lightning on Hitler. Then the next crook comes into power. Remove him too. If someone else tries to be funny and want to conquer the world, well, then kill him off too. Surely that must be much simpler for god, but ou must admit that there is just no logic in god's actions, at least not humanly logical.[/b]

Were dictators such as Hitler and Saddam not dealt with accordingly? I think they did pay a high price for their wickedness. Granted, it may not have been done the way you would have liked, however, they were dealt with nonetheless. I also see value in the way it was handled. It is important to show humanity the capacity of evil man has for his fellow man. It teaches us volumes about our own nature as well as our need for a holy God to correct such behavoir. After all, men like Hitler are the personification of evil. Even people who are not religous often refer to him as demonic. To me such self evident truth is priceless. Also, as I said before, what about the men and women who supported such men in the quest for power? What about the regime of hoodlimes that surrounded them? Should they not be dealt with as well? It seems to me that it is a messy business, however, perhaps they must be dealt with as well in the eyes of the Almighty. This teaches us that no evil is carried out in a vacum. It effects the society within such evil is carried out, therefore, society as a whole has a moral responsibility to respond to such evil responsibly or else suffer the consequences for being negligent. After all, God created us to be accountable and responsible beings. He did not create us helpless robots who need him to wipe our noses every time it needs wiped. Perhaps such lessons are painful, but then I find the best lessons that have the most impact on me often involves pain in some form or another.

Just keep in mind that if God wanted to wipe away all suffering in the world sin must be done away with. Unfortunatly that would mean doing away with mankind as well because we are all sinners. To me it is somewhat of a tight rope act to, on the one hand, show us grace and mercy when we sin to allow us for the oppurtunity at redemption and, on the other hand, draw a line in the sand when our wickedness exceeds levels that God finds unacceptable that may conflict with his overall plan for his creation. You say that God had no justification for the men he has slain in the Bible. However, the truth of the matter is that such men were exceedingly wicked according to the Bible. For example, the men of Sodom and Ghommora demanded that strangers who entered the city give themselves over to them sexually. Men and women during the time of Noah were said to have had their mind set on wickedness continually and were known for their murderous ways. Society had altogether run amok. The men of Caanan would sacrifice their children to their gods they worshiped. These are but a few facts about the wicked men God has slain. I can only imagine what we do not know about them. Judge God if you like, however, you must conceede that you are in a much lesser position in judging him especially when you yourself are not fully informed regarding the facts of such judgements against such widked men and women.

Originally posted by whodey
Judge God if you like, however, you must conceede that you are in a much lesser position in judging him especially when you yourself are not fully informed regarding the facts of such judgements against such widked men and women.

That's the crux of the problem. Nobody is fully informed about the rationale behind God's judgments. For all you know, they could be unjust.

Your faith overrides logic, which indicates that it is very likely that God has killed many people unjustly, without a greater good in mind. You have given yourself over to faith, and are content to leave this dilemma unexplained. I, and others like me, work in the opposite direction. I must resolve critical logical problems before I commit to any belief.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
That's the crux of the problem. [b]Nobody is fully informed about the rationale behind God's judgments. For all you know, they could be unjust.

Your faith overrides logic, which indicates that it is very likely that God has killed many people unjustly, without a greater good in mind. You have given yourself over to faith, and are content to lea ...[text shortened]... he opposite direction. I must resolve critical logical problems before I commit to any belief.[/b]

The difference between you and I is that I believe and search for revelations in terms of difficult questions I may not know. You, on the other hand, reject what you do not know and seek no further explanation as to what may not make sense to you. The proverb, "Seek and ye shall find" I think applies in this regard. Only those who seek to understand will find answers, not the ones who blindly accept that there are no answers and do not seek them. Unfortunatly, this limits you greatly because we live in a complex world. If we are honest with ourselves, we will conceede that we understand very little. You say my faith overrides my logic but I could say that your logic overrides attempting to understand what lies beyond the limitations of your current limited and finite logic. Whether or not you believe in God you must conceede that certain aspects of our existance lies beyond the confines of your logic. Therefore I embrace what I can understand as well as what I may not be able to understand. You only embrace what you can understand which I find to be very self limiting.

Originally posted by whodey
The difference between you and I is that I believe and search for revelations in terms of difficult questions I may not know. You, on the other hand, reject what you do not know and seek no further explanation as to what may not make sense to you. The proverb, "Seek and ye shall find" I think applies in this regard. Only those who seek to understand will f ...[text shortened]... o understand. You only embrace what you can understand which I find to be very self limiting.

And you embrace all, irrespective of whether it makes sense or not.

Actually, that's not true - you are a hypocrite, you accept the Christian God, yet not Thor, the polytheism of the Hindus, Olympians or Vikings, you reject voodoo, and thousands of mutually contradictory tribal beliefs. All of which have exactly the same amount of logical credibility as your God.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And you embrace all, irrespective of whether it makes sense or not.

Actually, that's not true - you are a hypocrite, you accept the Christian God, yet not Thor, the polytheism of the Hindus, Olympians or Vikings, you reject voodoo, and thousands of mutually contradictory tribal beliefs. All of which have exactly the same amount of logical credibility as your God.

You cannot accept all religions that exist because they contradict one another in some form or fashion. What you can do, however, is be open a particular belief that you may not fully understand.

Originally posted by whodey
You cannot accept all religions that exist because they contradict one another in some form or fashion. What you can do, however, is be open a particular belief that you may not fully understand.

Pick and choose one that you like then? Doesn't mean it's right though, or that any of them are right. In fact, by choosing one, you are denying all others, on what seems a pretty flimsy basis.