29 Jun 15
Originally posted by chaney3Here is something we agree on. That Jesus is the Son of God and this is what the Bible commands us to believe and to preach.
Not that anybody else besides you actually care about what I may have said, but it is my belief that our knowledge of God comes from the Old Testament. Our 'additional' knowledge of God comes from the New Testament.....through Jesus Christ. I am not fully convinced that Jesus IS God, which is why I don't put a label on my beliefs. I may have been asking n ...[text shortened]... y believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God.....as He stated 100's of times in the New Testament.
The Apostles all preached that very clearly. There are only a few cases where statements are made that can be twisted to mean that Jesus is God.
Here Philip preaches:
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Acts 8:36-37 KJV)
Paul:
[i]Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
John:
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:14-15 KJV)
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Concerning Luke 10:20:
However do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens.
Examining the passage I would contribute:
1.) It does not say only the 70's names were recorded in heaven. Insisting that only the 70's names are recorded in heaven is going beyond what we are told.
2.) It does not say WHY their names were recorded in heaven. We are not sure if IE. it is because of some specific spiritual service they did or generally because they are believers.
All we are really told is that they should rejoice that their names are recorded in heaven. That's all.
Maybe He meant because of their participation in a certain kind of spiritual warfare, their names are recorded in heaven in addition to them being recorded as being eternally saved.
IE.
"If anyone work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)
Here you have believers saved yet in two categories:
1.) Those saved with a reward.
2.) Those saved yet through fire who suffer loss.
Why could there not be a record of all saved and a record of those rewarded ?
I am not trying to be cute here or clever. I am only trying to help bible readers think through the issue.
4.) It doesn't say that no OTHER names were recorded before their's were recorded. Nor does it say that their names will be the LAST to be thus recorded.
Insisting that ONLY those seventy names are recorded in heaven is going beyond what we are told.
5.) Is the recording here the recording of names in the book of life ? I would lean towards that understanding. But I don't know.
Before the Gospel of Luke was written Paul previously wrote of those whose names were written in the book of life. And he was referring apparently to some of his co-workers.
"Yes, I ask you also, genuine yokefellow: assist them, since they contended with me in the gospel, as well as with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life." (Phil. 4:3)
I don't think, Euodias (v.2), Syntyche (v.2), Timothy, Titus, Priscilla, Aquilla, Silas, Barnabus, or Clement were among the seventy Jesus sent out in Luke 10.
And the tone of the passage is to me -
"I have mentioned these names. But there are other names of worthy co-workers who are mentioned in the book of life. God knows who they are."
It is interesting that this was written not only prior to the Gospel of Luke but also to the book of Revelation, our primary source of verses about "the Lamb's book of life" or "the book of life" .
This indicates to me that before John wrote of it in Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12,15; 21:27 Paul knew of it.
Paul's revelation was from God of the matter.
John's revelation was also from God of the matter.
29 Jun 15
Originally posted by divegeesterKeep me out of your little forum warfare witch hunt.
Well there are several posters in this thread alone taking issue with you now; Suzianne is on your case as well it seems.
I know you sometimes have reading comprehension problems, but my last post was directed towards Rajk999, not cheney3.
29 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Judas was a devil the hole time.
Actually, NO!! Those 70 were promised a guaranteed place in the Kingdom of God. Many others received such a guarantee in the time of Christ.
There is no such thing as once saved always saved in the Bible pal. OSAS is a man-made expression designed to draw the gullible to give money to the churches. If any of those 70 had committed a sin that is unforgiva ...[text shortened]... ce saved always saved. Its an unbiblical and a childish concept designed to fool stupid people.
29 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999The bible story of Judas may be wrong. There is the recently found Book of Judas that spells the story a bit different, it says Jesus CHOSE Judas to betray him thus making Judas into a hero instead of the vilification he receives now.
Actually, NO!! Those 70 were promised a guaranteed place in the Kingdom of God. Many others received such a guarantee in the time of Christ.
There is no such thing as once saved always saved in the Bible pal. OSAS is a man-made expression designed to draw the gullible to give money to the churches. If any of those 70 had committed a sin that is unforgiva ...[text shortened]... ce saved always saved. Its an unbiblical and a childish concept designed to fool stupid people.
29 Jun 15
Originally posted by Rajk999God will separate the wheat from the tears. The tears are the unsaved. Your name was either in the lambs book of life before the foundations of the world or it wasn't and if it was you were once saved always saved.
That my point. Thank you. There are devils in the church the [b]hole time. They cannot be once saved always saved. You dont know who they are so you cannot claim that they are saved. Only God knows.[/b]
30 Jun 15
Originally posted by RBHILLDo you know whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life?
God will separate the wheat from the tears. The tears are the unsaved. Your name was either in the lambs book of life before the foundations of the world or it wasn't and if it was you were once saved always saved.
30 Jun 15
Originally posted by chaney3For over a thousand years when someone said "the church" or Christianity it meant only one thing: the Catholic Church...
Catholics and Christians have similar beliefs, but are not the same thing. If they were the same thing, no need for the different names FMF. This answer should satisfy you, and discourage the need for 800 more posts.
Only in the last 500 years has Christianity split into cults which became sects.
Sort of like embracing your father but rejecting (and refusing to recognize) your grandfather. Silly Abrahamic religions. 🙄🙄
Originally posted by SuzianneIf you want to stay out of a particular fray I suggest you don't post in it. If you don't want who you are replying to to be confused, I suggest you use the "reply and post" option. As for this being a "witch hunt" I suggest you read chaney3 on Thread 164642. There is nothing wrong with my comprehension nor my nose for weasels.
Keep me out of your little forum warfare witch hunt.
I know you sometimes have reading comprehension problems, but my last post was directed towards Rajk999, not cheney3.
🙂
Originally posted by divegeesterI dunno, maybe you could actually READ posts that you condemn? Even if I hadn't mentioned Rajk BY NAME, the content of the post is senseless if directed at cheney3. It's obviously directed at Rajk, even if you are the most casual reader of this forum. But that means you actually have to read stuff.
If you want to stay out of a particular fray I suggest you don't post in it. If you don't want who you are replying to to be confused, I suggest you use the "reply and post" option. As for this being a "witch hunt" I suggest you read chaney3 on Thread 164642. There is nothing wrong with my comprehension nor my nose for weasels.
🙂
Or was it (gasp!) TOO LONG!!! for you?
And I know it's hard to raise up your head from your own personal "world" and realize there is more going on out here than just "You, YOU, YOU!!!!" but maybe give it a try now and then.
30 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonhouseThe "Gospel of Judas" was thought to be written c.280AD by Gnostics. The Gnostics had their own agenda, apart from conventional Christianity. They claim that the other apostles were not taught the "true gospel" which Jesus only taught to Judas, who was the only apostle belonging to the new "holy generation". Most of the manuscript focuses on Jesus' teachings to Judas.
The bible story of Judas may be wrong. There is the recently found Book of Judas that spells the story a bit different, it says Jesus CHOSE Judas to betray him thus making Judas into a hero instead of the vilification he receives now.
According to Wikipedia:
"The Gospel of Judas consists of 16 chapters which document Jesus's teaching about spiritual matters and cosmology. Judas is the only one of Jesus's disciples who accurately understands the words of his master. This Gospel contains few narrative elements; essentially, the Gospel records how Judas was taught by Jesus the true meaning of his message.
The Gospel contains ideas which contradicted those circulating in the early Christian church. The author argues that God is essentially a "luminous cloud of light" who exists in an imperishable realm. Adamas, the spiritual father of all humanity, was created in God's image and dwelled in the imperishable realm.
At the beginning of time, God created a group of angels and lower gods. Twelve angels were willed to come into being [to] rule over chaos and the [underworld].
The angels of creation were tasked with creating a physical body for Adamas, which became known as the first man Adam. Gradually, humanity began to forget its divine origins and some of Adam's descendants (Cain and Abel) became embroiled in the world's first murder. Many humans came to think that the imperfect physical universe was the totality of creation, losing their knowledge of God and the imperishable realm.
Jesus was sent as the Son of the true God, not of one of the lesser gods. His mission was to show that salvation lies in connecting with the God within the man. Through embracing the internal God, the man can then return to the imperishable realm.
Eleven of the disciples Jesus chose to spread his message misunderstood the central tenets of His teaching. They were obsessed with the physical world of the senses. They continued to practise religious animal sacrifice, which pleased the lower gods but did not help to foster a connection with the true God. They wrongly taught that those martyred in the name of Christ would be bodily resurrected.
In contrast, Jesus is able to teach Judas the true meaning of his life, ministry and death. Mankind can be divided into two races, or groups. Those who are furnished with the immortal soul, like Judas, can come to know the God within and enter the imperishable realm when they die. Those who belong to the same generation of the other eleven disciples cannot enter the realm of God and will die both spiritually and physically at the end of their lives. As practices that are intertwined with the physical world, animal sacrifice and a communion ceremony centered around cannibalism (the symbolic consumption of Jesus' flesh and blood) are condemned as abhorrent. Death is seen not as a glorious event but simply as a way to escape the perishable realm of the flesh.
Of crucial importance is the author's understanding of Jesus' death. The other Gospels argue that Jesus had to die in order to atone for the sins of humanity. The author of Judas expresses the view that this sort of substitutionary justice pleases the lower gods and angels. The true God is gracious and thus does not demand any sacrifice. In the Gospel of Judas, Jesus's death is simply a final way for him to leave the realm of the flesh and return to the luminous cloud."
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This is all part and parcel of the theology of the Gnostics. One can see why the Gnostics would create this "gospel" out of whole cloth. They were striking out at contemporary Christianity and attempting to derail its followers into their sect.