22 Nov 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitIf you are not open to the possibility that I may have some constructive ideas on this then the whole process will just become a self fulfilling prophecy for you. You will decide beforehand that my ideas will be naff...and hey presto you will then perceive them as naff because you are not open to them.
Nice trick question. Why should I promise to be open to ideas that you have not yet revealed?
Being open does not mean you agree it just means having a balanced open mind.
22 Nov 07
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Originally posted by knightmeisterIf you are not open to the possibility that I may have some constructive ideas on this...
If you are not open to the possibility that I may have some constructive ideas on this then the whole process will just become a self fulfilling prophecy for you. You will decide beforehand that my ideas will be naff...and hey presto you will then perceive them as naff because you are not open to them.
Being open does not mean you agree it just means having a balanced open mind.
That's not what you said before. This equivocation is a salesman-like tactic to make the 'buyer' seem like he's rejecting something eminently reasonable:
S: Before I show you my catalog, will you commit to buying at least 2 of any item therein?
B: I can't commit to buy items before I see them, or read a description.
S: So you are not open to the possibility that I may have useful items to sell you?
...then the whole process will just become a self fulfilling prophecy for you. You will decide beforehand that my ideas will be naff...and hey presto you will then perceive them as naff because you are not open to them.
You're trying to read minds and see the future. It's futile to try to steer debates in advance like this. I also remind you that you have gone into debates without being open to the ideas of the other side; for example, in the free will debates, you were not open to the idea of compatibilism.
Being open does not mean you agree it just means having a balanced open mind.
If you said God sent little green aliens down to earth to inflict pain and turn people to him, I would reject the idea out of hand. There are some ideas that are too outlandish to be interesting or worth discussion.
22 Nov 07
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Originally posted by SwissGambitYou read far too much into this. I'm simply pointing out (to use the salesman analogy ) that if you have no intention at all of even test driving the car I am trying to sell you then what's the point?
[b]If you are not open to the possibility that I may have some constructive ideas on this...
That's not what you said before. This equivocation is a salesman-like tactic to make the 'buyer' seem like he's rejecting something eminently reasonable:[quote]S: Before I show you my catalog, will you commit to buying at least 2 of any item therein?
B: I hand. There are some ideas that are too outlandish to be interesting or worth discussion.[/b]
You have decided what this prayer is about and I am saying that it's not about that. The prayer is connected to the idea that God sometimes makes us restless or frustrated with the world or blocks our desires out of compassion because he wants us to find him. He knows that if we find the world too comfortable and too pleasurable we might become lost in it. It's connected to Jesus's idea that it does not profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his very soul.
23 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI don't shop for a car every year. I don't shop for a car most years. They're too expensive to replace often.
You read far too much into this. I'm simply pointing out (to use the salesman analogy ) that if you have no intention at all of even test driving the car I am trying to sell you then what's the point?
You have decided what this prayer is about and I am saying that it's not about that. The prayer is connected to the idea that God sometimes makes us r ...[text shortened]... s's idea that it does not profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his very soul.
I am not on equal footing with the car salesman. He is only interested in selling me something. The thought of buying anything from me wouldn't occur to him. Dealing with him is at best a necessary evil; I endure his cheap pressuring tactics in order to get the car I want.
I'm a Pontiac owner trying to discuss the comparative virtues of cars with you, the Honda owner. Neither of us are prepared to just drop our brand of car and buy the competition. We've invested too much time and money in them.
[OK, enough stretching of that analogy...]
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I'm not sure what your real objection is to my reading of the prayer. My analysis is compatible with what you have said; I just disagree that God's deliberate frustration of our desires is a laudable act.
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitI'm not sure what your real objection is to my reading of the prayer. My analysis is compatible with what you have said; I just disagree that God's deliberate frustration of our desires is a laudable act.---swiss----
I don't shop for a car every year. I don't shop for a car most years. They're too expensive to replace often.
I am not on equal footing with the car salesman. He is only interested in selling me something. The thought of buying anything from me wouldn't occur to him. Dealing with him is at best a necessary evil; I endure his cheap pressuring tactics i ...[text shortened]... aid; I just disagree that God's deliberate frustration of our desires is a laudable act.
He doesn't frustrate everyone's desires always , often it's only those who seek him. If what you want is to be immersed in the trappings of the world then fine. God will still make you restless because there will always be a God shaped hole in your heart , whatever else you choose to fill it with.
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI hate to burst your bubble, but I was far more restless as a Christian than an atheist. I tried it your way for years and years.
I'm not sure what your real objection is to my reading of the prayer. My analysis is compatible with what you have said; I just disagree that God's deliberate frustration of our desires is a laudable act.---swiss----
He doesn't frustrate everyone's desires always , often it's only those who seek him. If what you want is to be immersed in the trappin ...[text shortened]... will always be a God shaped hole in your heart , whatever else you choose to fill it with.
I know Christians have a hard time accepting this, but not everybody feels a need for a god.
We are all 'immersed in the trappings of this world'. Our beliefs only dictate how we respond to the world.
I didn't just wake up one day and decide to throw my Christian faith out the window. Rather, after weeks of lengthy and occasionally painful self-examination, I concluded that I no longer truly believed.
By contrast, buying my first new car took about a week. 😵
24 Nov 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitSo when you believed did you have an intellectual belief or did you have a personal relationship with Christ based on the active presence of the Holy Spirit ?
I hate to burst your bubble, but I was far more restless as a Christian than an atheist. I tried it your way for years and years.
I know Christians have a hard time accepting this, but not everybody feels a need for a god.
We are all 'immersed in the trappings of this world'. Our beliefs only dictate how we respond to the world.
I didn't just wa ...[text shortened]... hat I no longer truly believed.
By contrast, buying my first new car took about a week. 😵
Originally posted by knightmeisterOr: Did he wholeheartedly believe that (and feel as if) he had a personal relationship with Christ based on the active presence of the Holy Spirit—but ultimately realized that it was nevertheless a false belief?
So when you believed did you have an intellectual belief or did you have a personal relationship with Christ based on the active presence of the Holy Spirit ?
Are you leveling the old charge that those of us who were once—and for many, many years—Christian were not, well, really Christians?
There are Christians on here who say that they ultimately came to Christianity after having “tried” other paths. Did they really try them? Suppose I were to say to someone who had been a Buddhist, and later came to Christianity: “Well, you must not have really been a Buddhist; it must have been just an intellectual affair...”
I don’t know if that’s the game you’re about here (which is why I am asking). But it’s a pretty easy game that anybody can play. To see how silly it is, just put it into the car analogy you guys have tossed about here: “You couldn’t have really been a Ford person...”
24 Nov 07
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Originally posted by vistesdThank you for pre-empting that argument...I was afraid I might lose my lunch if I had to hear it again!
Or: Did he wholeheartedly believe that (and feel as if) he had a personal relationship with Christ based on the active presence of the Holy Spirit—but ultimately realized that it was nevertheless a false belief?
Are you leveling the old charge that those of us who were once—and for many, many years—Christian were not, well, really Christians?
T ...[text shortened]... nalogy you guys have tossed about here: “You couldn’t have really been a Ford person...”
you have now forced KM to be clever enough to disguise the same argument well enough to slip it past me (I'm sure he is able)...thus saving my lunch.
1 lunch saving rec.
24 Nov 07
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Originally posted by vistesdIt always reminds me of doctors who believe that some disease is incurable, and if someone is cured, they say that person must have been misdiagnosed. The incurability becomes a defining criterion for the disease.
Or: Did he wholeheartedly believe that (and feel as if) he had a personal relationship with Christ based on the active presence of the Holy Spirit—but ultimately realized that it was nevertheless a false belief?
Are you leveling the old charge that those of us who were once—and for many, many years—Christian were not, well, really Christians?
T ...[text shortened]... nalogy you guys have tossed about here: “You couldn’t have really been a Ford person...”
When I was a Christian, it was anything but an intellectual affair. It was when I started to use my intellect again that I lost my faith.