Misc. Hell Responses

Originally posted by CalJust
Yes.

Can you?

Welcome to marching to a different beat.

Originally posted by Rajk999

There is an interesting issue for these Christians who believe in, preach and even relish the idea of eternal torment of non-believers.
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If I relished the thought of sinners being forever separated from God I would not be writing and telling people about the Gospel.

It is hard to have a conversation about the Christ's teaching with a slandering liar. That's what you are doing - making false slandering accusations as a liar would.


Christ says:

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
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The passage is about God the Creator causing the rain to fall on the good and the evil and causing the sun to rise on the evil and the good. That is things pertaining to this creation under the sun.

There is still a final judgment. You cannot use Matt. 5:45 to argue that we are warned of the last judgment and the perdition of the lost.

Your twisted accusation falsely accuses believers in God's final judgment to be a lack of love for sinners like ourselves, who still need to be saved by grace.

You may be teaching a doctrine of demons.

Originally posted by CalJust
Sonship,

Having said that, and in the context of this thread, would you be prepared to examine the doctrine of eternal punishment from first principles, e.g. sin, justice, mercy and grace, without referring to Revelations or the rich man and poor Lazarus?

Okay, we can start with mercy and grace. Can you describe God's mercy and grace with
respect to God's limitations for both if there are limitations?

Rajk999 continued:


Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom.

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None of these sayings make null and void His speaking about Christ judging men in the very same "sermon on the mount". IE. Matt. 7:22,23. This is in the very same chapter in which He spoke of the disciples judging in verses 1 and 2.


Besides you are judging me and falsely. You are falsely judging me to "relish" eternal punishment.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. (Luke 6:35-38 KJV)
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That is Luke chapter 6. In chapter 12 the same mouth spoke of whom men should fear, God, who is able to punish beyond what man can do (Luke 12:4,5).

And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do.

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killingm ha authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)

Regardless how uncomfortable this is for you the TEACHING here is about WHOM men should FEAR.

It is not a teaching that FEAR is the ONLY response men should have toward God. But it is a teaching that FEAR is a LEGITIMATE response (with other responses) men should have.

And the reason includes the facts spoken in the immediately previous sentences. Nothing, but NOTHING is hidden from God and men will give an account:

" ... Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

But there is nothing covered up which will not be revealed, and hidden which will not be known.

Therefore what you have said in the darkness will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the private rooms will be proclained on the housetops.

And I say to you My friends, Do not fear .... etc. etc." (Luke 12:1b-4a)

So there are two reasons why men should include a healthy fear for God in their array of emotional responses to Him:

1. ) Though you can hide from other people, absolutely nothing can be hidden from God.

2.) Men can kill the body but God has authority to punish the soul after the body is killed.

This is the SAME Person teaching as taught your wonderful samples of divine forgiveness and mercy. So we need a all-encompassing view of God and not cheat people.

You're presenting a lopsided and biased view of the Gospel of God. I am just being faithful to include "the kindness and severity of God."

Rajk999 cont:


Basically Christ says to be merciful, generous and forgiving. To me a Christian that believes in eternal torment for all non Christians and with such a narrow interpretation of the teachings of Christ is quite possibly lacking in these qualities... and are unmerciful,
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How Revelation closes in the matter of the lake of fire is everyone whose name is not written in the book of life (Rev. 20:15).

Strictly speaking it did not say anyone who was not a Christian.
It said anyone whose name was not recorded in the book of life.

I don't speculate too much. I just point out that that is what it says.


lacking in generosity and unforgiving. Christ says that He will treat them with the same measure.
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The judgment seat of Christ is a judgement. And it is for Christians. The decision there is not pertaining to eternal life or eternal perdition. The decision there is pertaining to being saved with reward or being saved and suffering loss.

I have mentioned this to you many times. You have never once been able to refute it to my memory. And you will not be able to this time either I suspect.

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

The most lenient, generous and liberal interpretation of the Bible [something which I have often said] is the one which includes all people ..
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The verses about those who are saved do include people from every people, tribe, tongue and nation, and from the four directions of the earth. (Rev. 5:9; 7:9; 21:13)

Still though the Bible speaks of those whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev. 20:15) being cast into the lake of fire.

Because 5:9; 7:9; 21:13 exists does not make 20:15 not exist.


all good and God-fearing people whose conscience guides them to live righteously before God, whoever they conceive Him to be. God is not a respecter or persons, neither is God interested in semantics or cheap talk.
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There are passages that speak along these lines. None of them make Rev. 20:15 disappear from the New Testament.

Some of you people are just going to have to get use to the awesomeness of God Almighty. He can be merciful, kind, forgiving, gracious and also pass judgment upon those who want nothing to do with Him.

It is peculiar that some minds cannot grasp that the Ultimate Being possesses more than one angle to His character.


God is interested in those who follow after righteousness. Evil doers will be destroyed or not even raised from the dead.
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This contradicts the words of Christ directly -

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which ALL in the tombs will hear His voice.

And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,29)

You are teaching a gross error of your imagination, IE. that "ALL" dead will not be resurrected.

Originally posted by sonship
If I relished the thought of sinners being forever separated from God I would not be writing and telling people about the Gospel.

And yet you have explicitly stated here on this forum that knowing that non-believers [and/or those who mistreat you] will be tortured for eternity makes living your "Christian life" easier.

Originally posted by FMF
And yet you have explicitly stated here on this forum that knowing that non-believers [and/or those who mistreat you] will be tortured for eternity makes living your "Christian life" easier.

You trick twisted my words before. And there is no need for me to untwist this slander again.

Originally posted by sonship
You trick twisted my words before. And there is no need for me to untwist this slander again.

So you will ignore him just like you ignore my objections to the biblical hell?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, we can start with mercy and grace. Can you describe God's mercy and grace with
respect to God's limitations for both if there are limitations?

Can we establish some ground rules?

This discussion should be impersonal and objective, with emphasis on logic, reason and common sense.

For the sake of this exercise, Scripture (as any literature) may be used as information, but not as authoritative.

Personally, I would not have started with grace and mercy, but if that is what you suggest, then that's fine.

Both mercy and grace are OPTIONAL CHOICES. You are right that there are limitations, but they are the exception. A judge, or the President for that matter, can commute a death sentence, and be lenient. This is his or her choice, if it was not, it would be prescribed and hence part of the law, which means by definition NOT mercy.

So mercy and grace are CHOICES, to be engaged by the authority figure under comditions which are meaningful to that figure.

Originally posted by CalJust
Can we establish some ground rules?

This discussion should be impersonal and objective, with emphasis on logic, reason and common sense.

For the sake of this exercise, Scripture (as any literature) may be used as information, but not as authoritative.

Personally, I would not have started with grace and mercy, but if that is what you suggest, then t ...[text shortened]... CES, to be engaged by the authority figure under comditions which are meaningful to that figure.

Works for me with respect to impersonal and objective with logic, reason, and common
sense being the emphasis.

Not sure why you think scripture isn't an authority, for me it is the bottom line as the Word
of God. If you believe it is otherwise than I think we need not go on in this discussion
due to we do not have the same measure on what we can agree is the authority on this
or any other topic.

I've asked questions I've not given you my views on either grace and mercy, but I do
agree they are choices, but they are not given without rules/obligations that God has
placed upon Himself and us.

So say they are given, are there limitations then? Does God's grace and mercy not cover
all sin, will it wear out over time? Will God still beat us up after He has forgiven us both
His grace and mercy?

Originally posted by KellyJay

Not sure why you think scripture isn't an authority, for me it is the bottom line as the Word of God. If you believe it is otherwise than I think we need not go on in this discussion due to we do not have the same measure on what we can agree is the authority on this or any other topic.

Then why discuss anything ever with atheists in these forums? Atheists by definition do not accept scripture as an authority, so we will never have the same measure.

It's like me saying that if you do not accept 'The God Delusion' as an authority there is no point talking to you.

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999 cont:

[b]
Basically Christ says to be merciful, generous and forgiving. To me a Christian that believes in eternal torment for all non Christians and with such a narrow interpretation of the teachings of Christ is quite possibly lacking in these qualities... and are unmerciful,
------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... aching a gross error of your imagination, IE. that "ALL" dead will not be resurrected.[/b]

Well you continue to confuse the issue with long unreadable incoherent babbling .. so I did not read it all.

This caught my eye though...

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV)

And you interpret that to mean that ALL people will be raised from Adam to now, and that ALL people are either good or evil and deserve either eternal life or eternal torment?

Further you believe that those who receive eternal life are those that accept Christ with their mouth, while all those who did not accept Christ with their mouth are evil and will receive eternal torment?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Works for me with respect to impersonal and objective with logic, reason, and common
sense being the emphasis.

Not sure why you think scripture isn't an authority, for me it is the bottom line as the Word
of God. If you believe it is otherwise than I think we need not go on in this discussion
due to we do not have the same measure on what we can agree ...[text shortened]... ear out over time? Will God still beat us up after He has forgiven us both
His grace and mercy?

Gods grace and mercy does have a limit. The Bible is crystal clear on that.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I can quote a dozen more like that. God does not tolerate continuous willful sin. God forgives and forgives and forgives, but there comes a point where God says no more. The teachings of Christ and the Apostles are clear on that point.

Originally posted by sonship
You trick twisted my words before. And there is no need for me to untwist this slander again.

What you said was that knowing that there is an eternal hell helps you to forgive those who mistreat you....Knowing people are going to suffer an eternity of unimaginable suffering helps you forgive them when they mistreat you. An astonishing revelation.