Misc. Hell Responses

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I'm not sure what I believe about the soul of Samuel, but whatever I did decide to belive about it would not have any bearing on theway I feel about the doctrine of eternal suffering.
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I believe the account. And it shows to me that even though there is no explicit sys ...[text shortened]... "And the assurance of billions of tortured people will be the doctrine you will agree to." [/i][/b]

Firstly, death followed by second death and NOT eternally broiling alive for eternity is completely compatible with any account about Samuel and compatible with being a soul being "annihilated" at this point.

You seem to think you can find scriptures or a combination of scriptures that will somehow demonstrate that your theological philosophy in this matter is not deeply flawed and morally unhinged.

I tell you what, forget scripture: I challenge you come up with any imaginary, way out there, whatever you like reason why this teaching is not morally incoherent and I will publically apologise to you.

Originally posted by FMF

Actually, the 'matter' is not persuasion, as you put it, it's coherence.
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So you consider it coherent that we are not accountable to an ultimate Governor ? I don't regard that as coherent.

What is coherent to me is what I am told:

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life.

And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:13)

For some reason it does not surprise me that God keeps an infallible record of everything a person did.

I do not agree with you about "thought crimes" being punished. Thoughts that develop into actions done, I think, is more the issue.

Now some people seem to want me to do the final judging before God. And if I cannot, because I am not either empowered or qualified to do so, they complain that I have not given good reason for them condemned.

But I do not keep these scrolls of all one's deeds.
I forget many of my own sins. How can I have infallible recall of all of some one else's. God has total recall of everything - good or bad, that a person did throughout their entire life. There will be no mistakes and no omissions.

So a last judgment is coherent.
And the persuasion will ultimately be done by God Himself who keeps the books and "the book of life".

Now the eternal part, is that coherent ?

Presently, I am persuaded that limited years of one's sinning may not be the reason for unlimited eternity of punishment. But eternal sinning among the lost calls for eternal suffering if the being separated from God is endless in existence.

If I say it is unjust for God to inflict eternal suffering solely because of men's past acts on earth, that would assume sinning could not be infinite. But if sinning is infinite then infinitely God will manifest His hatred for it.

The argument that eternal punishment in this case is unjust is the conclusion of a partial judge, the sinner. He leans toward his own race beyond what is actually just. This is the inward bribe to give a verdict on behalf of the one guilty. It is a one-sided intense appreciation of pain; but a light appreciation of sin against God, above Whom there is not more right being.

More to the point is that it is a light appreciation of what it meant for the Son of God to be judged to pay the debt of our sins so that God could look upon us as if we had never sinned at all.

Some may say "But that is no big deal we didn't believe in the Son of God." But apparently God will respond with "No, that was a big deal. And forever you WILL understand that that was a big deal. And the lost WILL know just how Perfect regards their sins and their unbelief. "

So we encourage sinners like ourselves to consider the coming of Jesus to live, die, and be resurrected as a signally important matter in all time. You shrug. We say there is nothing more important and we should hear Him and believe Him.

Originally posted by divegeester

Firstly, death followed by second death and NOT eternally broiling alive for eternity is completely compatible with any account about Samuel and compatible with being a soul being "annihilated" at this point.
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The First Samuel 28 story tell us nothing except Samuel was at peace after the first death and not non-existent.

This implies that one could be also not at peace after the first death and no non-existent.

And we do not have to be eager to believe so. We only have to read on in the Bible to be told so.

Jesus gave a teaching on Who it is that men should really fear. And without putting the passage up again I will review the basics of Matt. 10:28; Luke 12:5.

Why should greater fear be rendered to God than to man?
Greater fear should be rendered to God because God has power and authority to do more to punish you beyond what man can do.

Man can kill me.
He can also take my corpse and cast it into the city dump afterwards. So the "city dump" of Gehenna that Jesus speaks of has to indicate something more.

If man can throw my corpse into the city dump and God can throw my corpse into the city dump also then there is no reason God should be regarded with more fear than man. What more can God do that man can do?

But if after physical life ceases something else can be thrown into a dump of some kind by God, then clearly, He can do something beyond what man can do. And that is the basis of the reason Jesus says in conclusion:

" But I will show you whom you should fear ... yes, I tell you, fear this One." (See Luke 12:4,5)

The exploiting will try to twist from this that the only response men should have towards God is FEAR. But the entire Bible surely reveals that the ONLY response man should have toward God is not FEAR. HOWEVER, in a holistic way, it is one of the several responses man should have towards God.

And we should not complain that a section of Scripture focuses on THIS aspect as other sections focus on more pleasant matters.


You seem to think you can find scriptures or a combination of scriptures that will somehow demonstrate that your theological philosophy in this matter is not deeply flawed and morally unhinged.
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I don't think I am doing anything that you are not also doing.
So I put forth a combination of passages.
You do too.


I tell you what, forget scripture:
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No, I don't think I will "forget scripture". You don't.
You remember scriptures you wish and ask me to forget others.
I prefer to remember them all.


I challenge you come up with any imaginary, way out there, whatever you like reason why this teaching is not morally incoherent and I will publically apologise to you.
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Divegeester, I do not want you to apologize to me.
At least I don't for you having a different opinion about how to understand the Bible.

I've done some explaining why this dreadful matter of eternal punishment, is Scripture to believe along with, say, His mercy enduring for ever. Where we stand with Him does make a difference. In Christ, His mercy surely endures forever.

Against Christ, His wrath abides on that one.
So for this and other reasons as well, we should believe into Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Firstly, death followed by second death and NOT eternally broiling alive for eternity is completely compatible with any account about Samuel and compatible with being a soul being "annihilated" at this point.
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The First Samuel 28 story tell us nothing except Samuel ...[text shortened]... ath abides on that one.
So for this and other reasons as well, we should believe into Christ.[/b]

So, I've given you the opportunity it's to say anything, anything at all scriptural or otherwise and it seems that there is nothing you can say that will move me one inch toward your crazy interpretation of the God whose "mercy endures forever".

Do you realise that to me, let along the poor lost souls of this earth, that your insistence that God thier creator will...supernaturally keep them alive while he tortures them for eternity...because he loves them so much...if they don't believe in him, is the biggest sleight on the nature of God and his gospel, that can be cast.

Unbelievable.

Originally posted by divegeester
So, I've given you the opportunity it's to say anything, anything at all scriptural or otherwise and it seems that there is nothing you can say that will move me one inch toward your crazy interpretation of the God whose "mercy endures forever".

Do you realise that to me, let along the poor lost souls of this earth, that your insistence that God thie ...[text shortened]... is the biggest sleight on the nature of God and his gospel, that can be cast.

Unbelievable.

Dive, you call yourself a Christian, and yet, debate what is written in the Bible. Either you are no longer a Christian, or maybe now.....FINALLY, you will realize that maybe....just maybe....the Bible itself is BS. There are too many contradictions to have this 'Bible' have come from God. You will either accept what it says, or....as you are doing now, reject what it says. Which removes your shield of Christianity. Now....you are lost.

Edit: I have explained myself clearly in the 'debate' forum regarding my black/slave posts. So, please do not try to deflect from the obvious problem here. You are no longer a Christian, because you do NOT believe what is in the Bible. You are a lost person........and, your Poseidon pic is still gay.

Originally posted by divegeester

So, I've given you the opportunity it's to say anything, anything at all scriptural
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Am I suppose to say "Thankyou, for being so gracious " ?

or otherwise and it seems that there is nothing you can say that will move me one inch toward your crazy interpretation of the God whose "mercy endures forever".
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Whether you move or not or which way you want to move is your business. It doesn't change the word of God.

Do you realize that to me, let along the poor lost souls of this earth, that your insistence that God their creator will...supernaturally keep them alive while he tortures them for eternity...because he loves them so much...if they don't believe in him, is the biggest sleight on the nature of God and his gospel, that can be cast.
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No passage referred to in this thread is "a sleight on the nature of God"

Don't think that if you dislike everlasting punishment really really hard, the words out of the mouth of Christ will disappear from the Bible.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)

Maybe you should add some more accusatory details, saints like the angels high fiving each other, the saved laughing, Jesus rolling around giggling, God hooting in delight,

Juice it up some more. Work on it real hard. Maybe one night Matthew 25:46 will just suddenly vanish out of our Bibles.

Work on it.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] So, I've given you the opportunity it's to say anything, anything at all scriptural
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Am I suppose to say "Thankyou, for being so gracious " ?

or otherwise and it seems that there is nothing you can say that will move me one inch toward your crazy interpreta ...[text shortened]... e one night [b]Matthew 25:46 will just suddenly vanish out of our Bibles.

Work on it.[/b]

I'll preach "his mercy endures forever" and you preach his torment will last forever. Most people wouldn't think we are talking about the same person. We aren't.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'll preach "his mercy endures forever" and you preach his torment will last forever. Most people wouldn't think we are talking about the same person. We aren't.

Bump for Dive. You clearly don't agree with the Bible. You cannot claim to be a Christian anymore. Will you be joining Ghost and his buffets?

Originally posted by divegeester
I'll preach "his mercy endures forever" and you preach his torment will last forever. Most people wouldn't think we are talking about the same person. We aren't.

No, I will teach the whole Bible as faithfully as I can, including its varied truths.

"`I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." ( 1 Tim. 5:21)

That doesn't mean you teach God's everlasting mercy while I teach only your caricature which accuses God and God's saints of sadism, which you delight in.

First you need to rid the accusation out of your own mind. Secondly, you need to cease to use it to accuse the brothers of Christ. Maybe someone exploited this matter to give you a bad impression in the past. That is possible.

" ... Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ,

for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)

Part of bringing in the kingdom and hastening His coming is to overcome the accusation of the enemy against the consciences of the saints.

You are partaking of this accusation by portraying Christian brothers who believe God's everlasting punishment renders both Jesus and His followers as sadistic. But we counter you by the blood of the Lamb, by speaking the truth as our testimony, and loving Christ above our faces or popularity with man.

And it was pointed out that the line about God's everlasting mercy in Psalm 136 includes some judgment upon His enemies and the enemies of those who have trusted in Him.

No, it does not refer to eternal retribution per se in Psalm 136. That is taught elsewhere. But the principle of God's mercy on His people can be accompanied with vengeance on His people's adversaries, is there.

Suppose His everlasting mercy is REFUSED ?
Will He abdicate His hatred for unrighteousness on that account ?
No.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'll preach "his mercy endures forever" and you preach his torment will last forever. Most people wouldn't think we are talking about the same person. We aren't.

By not teaching the whole truth you are cheating people.

Originally posted by sonship
I do not agree with you about "thought crimes" being punished. Thoughts that develop into actions done, I think, is more the issue.

So non-believers can be "saved" ~ their non-belief or "thought crime" forgiven ~ and "sinners" who are believers can be tortured forever as a result of their actions?

Originally posted by sonship
Now some people seem to want me to do the final judging before God. And if I cannot, because I am not either empowered or qualified to do so, they complain that I have not given good reason for them condemned.

That is right. You are being asked to account for the moral incoherence of the ideology you espouse and endorse here in public. There are people who simply do not share your beliefs in your torturer God figure and you cannot, by your own admission, "give good reason for them [being] condemned" (i.e. being tortured). So there is no moral substance to your advocacy. Your personal acceptance of - and submission to - your notion of a torturer God figure is not a moral argument.

Originally posted by sonship
Some may say "But that is no big deal we didn't believe in the Son of God." But apparently God will respond with "No, that was a big deal. And forever you WILL[/i] understand that that was a big deal. And the lost WILL[/i] know just how Perfect regards their sins and their unbelief. "

You asserting that God thinks non-belief is "a big deal" is not a moral argument. You simply asserting that God's vengeful response will be "perfect" is not you providing a moral justification for torture.

Originally posted by sonship
If I say it is unjust for God to inflict eternal suffering solely because of men's past acts on earth, that would assume sinning could not be infinite. But if sinning is infinite then infinitely God will manifest His hatred for it.

You are being asked why you think it is just for God to inflict eternal suffering solely because of non-belief.

Originally posted by FMF

I don't know what the "~" is suppose to mean.
But I will unpack your comment and reply to its pieces.

So non-believers can be "saved"
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What I read is this about unbelief.

"But the cowardly and unbelieving .... their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (See Rev. 21:8)

Does that indicate that So non-believers can be "saved" ?
So a non-believer in believe in the Son of God.

And some who do not know of the Son of God should believe in God.


~ their non-belief or "thought crime" forgiven
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This seems some kind of confused trap you're making.
All I feel to say about this is that the words we utter are important in that we will be judged by the action of speaking things.

"And I say to you that every idle word which men shall speak, they will render an account concerning it in the day of judgment.

For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." (Matt. 12:36,37)

Now I have a prayer meeting coming up very shortly. So I cannot spend much time left here.


~ and "sinners" who are believers can be tortured forever as a result of their actions?
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I have to discontinue until latter.

People who are given eternal life are not given this because of their deeds but because of their belief.

People who are condemned forever are condemned because of their unbelief.

The perishing unbelievers will be judged according to the scrolls, which are a record of their works (Rev. 20:12-13), but they will be cast into the lake of fire according to the book of life. This indicates that they are condemned by the Lord because of their evil deeds but perish because of their unbelief, which issues in their not having their names written in the book of life.
Not believing in the Lord Jesus is the unique sin that causes them to perish.

I do not know everything about how God deals with those who cannot speak.

I really do not know everything about how someone's name might be written in the book of life according to some other circumstances that God in His all-knowing being knows about.

We are told enough. And pointed questions to explore consistency to the degree of some air tight, questionless concrete flow chart, I really don't think is any kind of proof that we should ignore the warnings of the Son of God and the Bible.

You are not the only one who can make questions or has considered special minute aspects of this message. As you said I cannot persuade you, and I agreed, neither do you persuade me to adopt anti-theism or whatever your philosophy is.

Some arguments might be made - "Then from what does Jesus save us - from hell or from our sins or from both or some circular danger ?" I have come to the conclusion that the best answer is that Jesus saves us from not being reconciled to God.