Moderate Christian Docrtine

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]Sin conscience is a very good thing. .. it keeps the believer in Christ focused of living righteously
Afraid of not pleasing God is a very good thing .. it makes you try harder to avoid sin and do good works
Afraid of losing ones salvation is a very good thing .. it makes you try even harder to please God

Very good things indeed.

This is ...[text shortened]... 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
NKJV
[/b][/b]

This what you said, I suspect is not in the Bible :

The works were already done in Christ. This is what sets us free.

I could be wrong, so please provide a reference

The Bible says the following:
Christ set us free from the burden of the Law of Moses.
Christ's death set us free from the law of sin and death .. meaning that as Adam sinned all of Adams descendants inherited sin and were doomed to die but Christ paid the price for that.
In place of that Law of Moses the doctrine of Christ came into effect
The truth that is in Christ also set us free.
The truth is the teachings of Christ.
Those teachings set us free from sin.
If we follow Christ we will be free from sin.

Followers of Christ are not automatically free. They are free IF and ONLY IF they follow Christ's teachings, as opposed to simply saying that they believe in Christ.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe He did indeed die for all mankind, each and everyone one. Saying that it is clear
He died for those that do not know Him. Saying that, it means that everyone can receive
forgiveness, that is not saying that everyone will or has been saved.

I agree with you Christ does condemn in strong language those who just call Him Lord,
Lord without doin ...[text shortened]... rs of obeying Him,
His work is our salvation what He did on the cross, our work is to obey Him.

We are essentially saying the same thing. I dont focus on Christians or Christianity when I think of what Jesus wants from people. You partially said it here:

..we are not saved by being "Christian" we are saved by our Lord Jesus.

... and my point is that Jesus will save all those who please him, and its not only those who profess to know him. There are many others .. according to Christ he has other sheep not of this [Jews] fold.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]Sin conscience is a very good thing. .. it keeps the believer in Christ focused of living righteously
Afraid of not pleasing God is a very good thing .. it makes you try harder to avoid sin and do good works
Afraid of losing ones salvation is a very good thing .. it makes you try even harder to please God

Very good things indeed.

This is ...[text shortened]... 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
NKJV
[/b][/b]

Romans 11 is talking about the Gentiles as a group but in any case that point still holds. If God calls someone, He does not change is mind, however eternal life is not a foregone conclusion and the person may not necessarily obtain favour with Him. There is another passage that says 'many are called but few chosen'.

Originally posted by Rajk999
We are essentially saying the same thing. I dont focus on Christians or Christianity when I think of what Jesus wants from people. You partially said it here:

[b]..we are not saved by being "Christian" we are saved by our Lord Jesus.

... and my point is that Jesus will save all those who please him, and its not only those who profess to know him. There are many others .. according to Christ he has other sheep not of this [Jews] fold.[/b]

I agree Jesus saves some not all, which is what I think you said here in not so many words.
The point I keep bringing up to you is that we are saved by grace through faith, and it like
the shed blood of Jesus was God's gift to us. We cannot earn God's favor, we can only
accept His forgiveness, and that is not the end, but the beginning with our life with God.
From that point on you and I, I believe are in agreement, we need to follow God doing the
good works He has for us to do.

Originally posted by Rajk999
This what you said, I suspect is not in the Bible :

[b]The works were already done in Christ. This is what sets us free.

I could be wrong, so please provide a reference

The Bible says the following:
Christ set us free from the burden of the Law of Moses.
Christ's death set us free from the law of sin and death .. meaning that as Adam sinned a ...[text shortened]... ONLY IF they follow Christ's teachings, as opposed to simply saying that they believe in Christ.[/b]

The point I am trying to make put another way is this.
The "seed" we received or holy spirit is incorruptible. It is free from sin and cannot sin.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
NKJV
1 John 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
NKJV
Now, we know that Christians can and do sin, but the spirit in him cannot sin, it is unaffected by sin. Our minds ARE affected.
When we sin we become slaves or come under the authority of Satan.

Rom 6:16-17
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
NKJV

John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
NKJV

So, I avoid sin because I don't want to invite Satan into my life. Sin= giving Satan permission to kill, steal and destroy me.
So, I confess to God and come back under the authority of Christ and Satan has to flee.

Now, every one of us has sin. I don't care if you confess it to God or not. We still have sin in us that we are not even aware of. No one is completely free of sin in our lives, only in the spirit we are free of sin. The spirit part is holy and pure and perfect.
This was the work of Christ. He cleansed us, for all sin, even future sin.

Heb 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Heb 10:16-18
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
NKJV

There is no longer an offering for sin. Why? Because Jesus would have to be crucified over and over. That is why he paid for all sin, past present and future with one offering.
We confess our sins, which paraphrased, means I agree with you Jesus and I am wrong, so I repent and come back under your authority. The sins were paid for 2000 years ago for all time.
In fact, the bible says..."if the God of this world had known, he would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

1 Cor 2:6-8

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The point I am trying to make put another way is this.
The "seed" we received or holy spirit is incorruptible. It is free from sin and cannot sin.

[b] 1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
..

So you quoted a part of this passage:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1Jn 3:6-10)

Your interpretation seems farfetched and does not mesh well with the teachings of Jesus.

What is it to 'abide in Him [Christ]' ? Christ explains:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (Joh 15:1-7)

The key to eternal life is the teachings of Jesus himself. Christ says so very very clearly here above .. by abiding in the words of Christ. It is the words of Christ that keeps Christ followers clean.

Again Jesus said

.. If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(Joh 14:23-24)

If you love Jesus you will keep his words and THEN and ONLY THEN Christ will abide in you. However if you do not keep His sayings it means that you do not love Jesus.

As for Christians who claim to have the 'Spirit' or Holy Spirit .. here are a couple passages to munch on :

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

THE WORDS OF CHRIST IS SPIRIT AND THAT IS LIFE .. HIS COMMANDMENTS .. HIS TEACHINGS

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)

Claiming to have the HS is not a guarantee that you will escape the punishment of your sins.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So you quoted a part of this passage:

[i][b]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son ...[text shortened]...

Claiming to have the HS is not a guarantee that you will escape the punishment of your sins.[/b]

This is a commentary from the REV concerning Hebrews 6:6

6) 6:6. “and then have fallen away it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” This verse reflects the permanence of salvation that is spoken of in so many other places in the Epistles [see Appendix 1: “The Permanence of Christian Salvation”]. This verse is not about losing salvation and not being able to regain it, although that is what many people think. If this verse were about losing one’s salvation, then we need to be clear about what it is saying, because it would be saying that if a saved person sins and loses his salvation, he cannot be forgiven and be saved again because that is “impossible.”

Could this one verse in Hebrews contradict all of the other verses in the Epistles that indicate the New Birth is permanent? A principle of interpretation is that the many clear verses on a subject outweigh what a contradictory verse seems to be saying. Also, can it really be true that the Bible says if a saved person sins and falls away from the faith it is “impossible” for him to get forgiveness and be saved again? Even in the Old Testament God implored the people of Israel to forsake evil and return to Him. Could it be that in the Old Testament a person could turn away from God but be accepted back with open arms if he would just ask God for forgiveness, but in the Christian Church if a person sins and falls away it is “impossible” for him to come back? That makes no sense.

A study of the Scripture shows us that people who sinned were welcomed back into the Christian community. For example, in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 the Apostle Paul asked the Church to welcome back a person who had sinned. In Galatians 6:1 people who sin are to be “restored.” The Church Epistles are filled with exhortations for Christians to stop sinning and obey God. The invitation of God always is for people to stop sinning and come back to Him. That fact in itself tells us there is a different way to understand Hebrews 6:6 than believing it is saying a saved person cannot repent after sinning.

We also see God’s forgiveness and restoration daily in our churches. Our churches have many people who were strong in the faith at one time, then leave the faith for a while, then repent of their sin and return to church and the Christian lifestyle. Is there anyone who will say that all those people, who are now valuable members of the church, are actually not saved because it was “impossible” to renew them to the faith once they left the faith? We hope not.

If this verse does not mean that it is “impossible” for someone who left the faith to be forgiven and return to God, then what does it mean? It means that it is “impossible” to renew a sinner to repentance because once a Christian repents and gets saved that salvation is permanent. It is “impossible” for the Christian to lose his salvation, so it is “impossible” for him to repent and get saved again. Every Christian can and does sin, but the sin, even egregious sin, does not cause a person to lose his salvation. Since the person’s salvation was never lost, the person cannot “renew” himself to “repentance.” Everyone can only repent and be saved one time. After that, when we sin, we can repent of our sin and be forgiven, but we do not get saved again because we never lost our salvation. Salvation is by the New Birth, and it is permanent.

What happens when a Christian sins and asks for forgiveness is clear from 1 John 1:8, 9: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These verses in 1 John assume that Christians will sin. In fact, 1 John 1:8 says that if we think we do not sin, we are deceiving ourselves. However, neither 1 John nor any other book of the New Testament has a warning such as, “Be careful! We all sin, but if you sin so horribly you fall away, you will not be able to be saved again.” No! Instead are the comforting words that if we confess our sin, God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Scholars who have studied this section of Scripture do not know why God addressed the permanence of our salvation by telling us it was impossible to be renewed to repentance. However, there are a couple possibilities we should consider. One is that there are many other places God plainly indicates that it is impossible to lose salvation. He calls it “birth,” and birth is permanent. He says our salvation is “guaranteed” (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14). Furthermore, He says we are already in heaven (Eph. 2:6). Saying it is impossible to renew our repentance would be just one more way that God would tell us that our salvation is permanent.

It is also possible that given the prevailing Jewish mindset of salvation by works, the idea of a permanent salvation was very upsetting to those determined to cling to their Jewish heritage. Thus Hebrews, rather than saying anything about someone losing his salvation, states the message in the opposite terms of it being impossible to repent again. If it were possible to renew oneself to repentance, then that would be saying that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ was not sufficient to cover a person’s sins once and for all, which is not the case. The one time sacrifice of Christ, and his substitution for the sinner, made that sinner righteous for all time, not just until he sinned the next time.

There is another good reason to believe that Hebrews 6:6 is about the permanence of salvation and not about a person falling away and then it being “impossible” for him to get saved again. There is no instruction in the New Testament about exactly what a Christian would have to do to fall away so completely that it would then be impossible for him to be saved again. Everyone sins, and the Word of the Lord is that to be forgiven we just confess our sin to God. If there was a sin that was so horrible that it made regaining salvation “impossible,” it surely seems that our loving Father would let us know what that was. Our earthly fathers sternly warn us about dangers, and so it certainly seems that if there was a sin from which we could not repent, our Heavenly Father would certainly warn us of it. But there is no such warning. Nowhere is the Church Epistles is a warning saying, “Do not do such and such, because if you do it will be impossible for you to regain your salvation.” That fact alone is very good evidence that this verse is not about a person losing his salvation and not being able to regain it. There is the verse about not being forgiven for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but this verse in Hebrews does not seem to be about that specific sin. Furthermore, Hebrews is written to people in the Grace Administration, when salvation is permanent, whereas Jesus was talking to people who lived before the Grace Administration started (see commentary on Ephesians 3:2).

Having given good evidence that this verse is about the permanence of salvation, there is one more thing that we have to consider as to why God has worded this verse the way He did, which seems very harsh, and that has to do with the overall context of this section. The whole section is written in a harsh way, with serious warnings for people to be faithful. For example, verses seven and eight speak of land that is blessed if it bears good fruit, but cursed if it does not. Orthodox Christian doctrine about heaven and hell has done a great disservice to Christians in that it has not given clear reasons to excel as a Christian. Many preachers teach about heaven as if “just getting in” is what matters. While it is true that there is no greater blessing anyone can have than having everlasting life, there is a lot more to consider. For one thing, we will not spend eternity in “heaven,” but on earth, and we will be subjects in the Kingdom of Christ on earth [see Appendix 3: “Christ’s Future Kingdom on Earth”]. Our “jobs” in the Kingdom will be assigned in relation to how we have lived our life on earth. If we have not been faithful, we will be there, but as Corinthians says, with nothing, just as someone who has survived a fire (cp. 1 Cor. 3:15; see commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:10). It is quite possible that a person living in the Kingdom with nothing, as if he had barely escaped a fire, is much worse than Christians generally imagine.
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
This is a commentary from the REV concerning Hebrews 6:6

6) 6:6. “and then have fallen away it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” This verse reflects the permanence of salvation that is spoken of in so many other places in the Epistles [see Appendix 1: “The Permanence of Christian Salvation”]. This verse is not about losing salvat ...[text shortened]... if he had barely escaped a fire, is much worse than Christians generally imagine.
(top)

That kind of reasoning might appeal to Christians who are searching for a loophole in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that will enable tghem to continue with their current worldly sinful lifestyle and still get into Gods Kingdom. Unfortunately for them here is no such loophole. God be with them on judgment day.

Serious followers of Christ dont need to twist the Bible like that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
That kind of reasoning might appeal to Christians who are searching for a loophole in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that will enable tghem to continue with their current worldly sinful lifestyle and still get into Gods Kingdom. Unfortunately for them here is no such loophole. God be with them on judgment day.

Serious followers of Christ dont need to twist the Bible like that.

Loophole? I think the one who needs to explain the many verses that agree with that commentary and the logic behind it, is you my friend. The people you accuse of living a sinful lifestyle live a much more holy life than you ever could.
And even though I don't know you, what you write reveals much about you.
Be that as it may, I rest my case.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Loophole? I think the one who needs to explain the many verses that agree with that commentary and the logic behind it, is you my friend. The people you accuse of living a sinful lifestyle live a much more holy life than you ever could.
And even though I don't know you, what you write reveals much about you.
Be that as it may, I rest my case.

You say " ..I can sin all I want and still get eternal life"

Is that a serious Christian doctrine?

What I write reveals one thing only to you .. that is that preach exactly what Jesus said.
You believe in and preach to people fabricated doctrines that encourages people to continue on with their sinful and worldly lifestyle.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You say " ..I can sin all I want and still get eternal life"

Is that a serious Christian doctrine?

What I write reveals one thing only to you .. that is that preach exactly what Jesus said.
You believe in and preach to people fabricated doctrines that encourages people to continue on with their sinful and worldly lifestyle.

Kelly is right. You simply ignore what was said and continue with your rant.
You completely ignore what I said about why we hate sin, and what the bible says about it.
But as I said, I rest my case... We will continue to disagree...🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Kelly is right. You simply ignore what was said and continue with your rant.
You completely ignore what I said about why we hate sin, and what the bible says about it.
But as I said, I rest my case... We will continue to disagree...🙂

I have nothing to say about what you say personally about you. Like you say you hate sin. I am saying nothing about that .. you hate sin .. good, that is fine.

I am addressing certain doctrines that you have which conflict with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

I am interested in truth in doctrine. I have no interest in your personal life, your personal philosophy, your personal lifestyle, your works .. I have NO INTEREST IN THAT. Neither do I tell people about my life. That as far as I am concerned is of no relevance.

Your doctrine is what I am attacking. It clearly is far from Christ.

And yes we will continue to disagree.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You say " ..I can sin all I want and still get eternal life"

Is that a serious Christian doctrine?

What I write reveals one thing only to you .. that is that preach exactly what Jesus said.
You believe in and preach to people fabricated doctrines that encourages people to continue on with their sinful and worldly lifestyle.

Did he really say that?
I don't know anyone who loves the Lord has that mind set.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Did he really say that?
I don't know anyone who loves the Lord has that mind set.

What he said is tantamount to that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What he said is tantamount to that.

So he didn't say it?

I guess you are doing to him what I did to you!