17 Mar 06
Originally posted by sonhouseYou are blaming the religion. You should be blaming the society.
Er, have you been to the middle east lately? I used to live there. I SAW how women were treated. One time we went there to study the muslim orphanage situation (this was a couple of years after we had finished a three year stint there working at Intel in Jerusalem).
As you no doubt know, another cruel twist of islam is not allowing the adaption of orphans, ...[text shortened]... k the male partner, who was also innocent, had these thugs after him? No, boys will be boys...
17 Mar 06
Originally posted by dottewellGive me a break, that is going on in nearly every muslim country.
You are blaming the religion. You should be blaming the society.
How many women professionals do you find in Iran? How many women are forced to wear body bags because the men are so sex crazed if they see so much as a kneecap they go nuts? You should take your head out of the sand and smell the bacon. The RELIGION is what makes the culture. In muslim countries the religion IS the state.
And any country where there is a muslim minority you can bet the immams who could at any time call for arms to kill for some imagined transgression like drawing stupid cartoons, there will be many who will eagerly take up arms, or do you want to argue that one also?
17 Mar 06
Originally posted by sonhouse"Many who will eagerly take up arms."
And any country where there is a muslim minority you can bet the immams who could at any time call for arms to kill for some imagined transgression like drawing stupid cartoons, there will be many who will eagerly take up arms, or do you want to argue that one also?
Would you say the majority of Muslims in a country like Britain would "eagerly take up arms"? Or not? And if not, why it the minority more representative of the religion than the majority?
18 Mar 06
Originally posted by sonhouseWhat you've said is the equivalent of believing that a rainman dancing can control the seasons.
Give me a break, that is going on in nearly every muslim country.
How many women professionals do you find in Iran? How many women are forced to wear body bags because the men are so sex crazed if they see so much as a kneecap they go nuts? You should take your head out of the sand and smell the bacon. The RELIGION is what makes the culture. In muslim cou ...[text shortened]... rtoons, there will be many who will eagerly take up arms, or do you want to argue that one also?
I mean, if the rainman dances in the first week of march and asks the spirits to bring life to the barren land, then would you believe him if that happened in the following weeks?
My point is, you should look at the other aspects of the society you are judging as well. How many of these people are living in poverty? How many of these people have adequate housing, medical attention, and education.
You're ignoring many, many, factors to justify bashing a religion.
Besides, I'd like to see some textual references (perhaps the good book itself?) that say women are worth as much as a cow or mule. You seem quite keen on using irrational and destitute people to prove your claims.
18 Mar 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadI see you misunderstood my post.
I see you misunderstood my post. I actually did not say that Christianity “subjugates women to the point of making them on the same level as cattle”
What I said was that was not a concept of Islam. I then went on to add that in terms of the attitude towards women Islam and Christianity are very similar.
[edit] Where I come from a good woman is worth at least 20 cows!
My bad.
18 Mar 06
Originally posted by dottewellSuppose X has a number of good points and a number of bad points.
"Many who will eagerly take up arms."
Would you say the majority of Muslims in a country like Britain would "eagerly take up arms"? Or not? And if not, why it the minority more representative of the religion than the majority?
Just how many bad points does X have to have, and how bad to those points have to be, relative to the good points, before one is warranted in asserting that X is bad?
Or suppose that X is bad, in many severe ways, in context C1, but not in context C2. Is one is warranted in asserting that X is bad, or not?
What makes the question even more complicated is that X could be called bad, not because it is manifestly bad, but because it is latently bad; or not because it is bad in its peripheral respects, but because its essence is bad.
So, if I only lie some of the time, I still get labeled a liar.
And then, of course, there is the question of (a) what X is, and (b) whether X and nothing else gives rise to the alleged good or bad effect. If X is definitionally loose, or casually confounded with Y and Z, then preferred preconceptions will likely affect conclusions.
18 Mar 06
Recently, during an Islam Awareness Week at my university, I picked up a free copy of the Koran. (At least I think is was free: the sign "please take one" may only have referred to some contiguous leaflets.) I zipped through the reverse-alphabetized index, disappointed to find little under the entry for "sex".
However, under the entry "hell" was written the following:
"The word 'hell' appears so many times in the noble Koran that if every single mention of it was listed, the index would be very long indeed."
This did not strike me as the best advertisement for Islam.
18 Mar 06
1 edit
Originally posted by dottewellHow can you even think about saying that when its an already proven fact or have you forgotten the burned embassies as a result of the cartoons, which were admittedly not even funny but how can you equate cartoons with murder? They did just exactly what I said, the Immans called for violence and there were any number of them quite ready to do it, and did, and will again if asked. There is nothing even vaguely spiritual about that. This is a power struggle pure and simple, it started about 1000 years ago when the stupid christians started the crusades and this is just the lastest phase. I am not just cutting down Islam here, Christianity is equally culpable.
"Many who will eagerly take up arms."
Would you say the majority of Muslims in a country like Britain would "eagerly take up arms"? Or not? And if not, why it the minority more representative of the religion than the majority?
18 Mar 06
3 edits
Originally posted by sonhousewhat makes you think women in the west are treated any better?
How can I count the ways: How bout this for one:
The blatant way they subjugate women to the point of making them
on the same level as cattle.
domestic violence against women in the uk is a major problem:
http://www.womenandequalityunit.gov.uk/domestic_violence/key_facts.htm
I'm not condoning anything that goes on in other parts of the world but you have to see this isn't a problem restricted only to muslim women.
edit. Domestic violence currently claims 150 lives a year (in the UK alone)
18 Mar 06
Originally posted by wucky3But is it a crime? Do men get arrested in the UK for abusing their wives and children? If so, this is in contrast to nations that are Islamic theocracies. Now I'll admit that the books I've read about women in the Middle East are from the women's perspectives. It's quite possible that they're lying and any woman in Saudi Arabia can really go without head coverings, travel without a note from her husband or father if she's unmarried, take her children with her without a note from her husband, choose her own husband, talk to unrelated males, vote, get a job, drive a car, be the equal of her husband and brothers, go to the grocery store, go to a bookstore, etc. However, these books have stated that a raped girl is then murdered by her relatives since she can't marry as she's no longer a virgin. Young (ages 12-14) wives who give birth are many times internally injured in the process because their bodies are too young for childbirth and so they are discarded.
what makes you think women in the west are treated any better?
domestic violence against women in the uk is a major problem:
http://www.womenandequalityunit.gov.uk/domestic_violence/key_facts.htm
I'm not condoning anything that goes on in other parts of the world but you have to see this isn't a problem restricted only to muslim women.
edit. Domestic violence currently claims 150 lives a year (in the UK alone)
The *women are cows* quote by Jesus must've come right after the *any move other than 1.E4 is an abomination.*
There are plenty of fundamentalist Christians (tempted to add more emphasis to the mental part and less to the fun part) who believe that women are property but I don't know of any current Christian theocracies to use for comparison purposes. I know many Christians but extremely few who believe that wives are property and should be treated like children. (Most of the people in the RHP forum who advocate those views also deride Christianity, so it isn't about the religion.)
18 Mar 06
Originally posted by wucky3Never said they were treated any better, but at least they can be PM's. How many women have been the leaders of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan,Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey?
what makes you think women in the west are treated any better?
domestic violence against women in the uk is a major problem:
http://www.womenandequalityunit.gov.uk/domestic_violence/key_facts.htm
I'm not condoning anything that goes on in other parts of the world but you have to see this isn't a problem restricted only to muslim women.
edit. Domestic violence currently claims 150 lives a year (in the UK alone)
Women are not allowed to even DRIVE in Saudi for krankys sake, and you talk about how free they must be?
18 Mar 06
Originally posted by reader1107Who on RHP believes women should be treated like children? I've never seen such sentiments expressed here (at least not blatantly). In particular, my quotation from Jesus was not intended to be misogynistic.
But is it a crime? Do men get arrested in the UK for abusing their wives and children? If so, this is in contrast to nations that are Islamic theocracies. Now I'll admit that the books I've read about women in the Middle East are from the women's perspectives. It's quite possible that they're lying and any woman in Saudi Arabia can really go without h ...[text shortened]... m who advocate those views also deride Christianity, so it isn't about the religion.)
19 Mar 06
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhousewhere did i say they were free???
Never said they were treated any better, but at least they can be PM's. How many women have been the leaders of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan,Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey?
Women are not allowed to even DRIVE in Saudi for krankys sake, and you talk about how free they must be?
I merely pointed out that women are treated as 2nd class citizens all over the world.