05 May 18
Originally posted by @wolfgang59I don't think survival ought to be the criterion. A person in a permanent vegetative state is technically surviving, but their actual life is over.
Up to 26 weeks is OK?
No way.
I believe 20 weeks is practical and ethical.
Prem babies have survived at 24 weeks.
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06 May 18
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemThe obvious difference being, a person in a permanent vegetative state often had an opportunity to live his or her life; a baby in the womb that’s aborted didn’t.
I don't think survival ought to be the criterion. A person in a permanent vegetative state is technically surviving, but their actual life is over.
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemI think survival/viability has to be a criterion to some degree otherwise whatever compromise is reached is built upon arguably arbitrary cut-off points which make for a hopeless battlefield on which sides that have such diametrically opposite views seek to apply their favoured restrictions.
I don't think survival ought to be the criterion.
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemI think I have absorbed and internalized my personal moral distaste for abortions from my Christian background. I could not imagine ever having been party to an abortion in my marriage (aside from the exceptions you cited). I am nonplussed by behaviour that results in "unwanted" pregnancies. And I am naturally concerned about the impact on the mindmaps of the man and woman involved, more especially the woman.
I think a reasonable compromise is banning third-trimester abortions, except in cases involving rape, incest, or danger to the mother's life.
Currently science indicates that the fetus has developed both a mind (rudimentary consciousness) and the ability to suffer going into the third trimester. I believe that is the point it should get the right ...[text shortened]... y as much as possible, yet not allowing an innocent human person to have their life snuffed out.
I have talked a couple of women out of having an abortion, and in both cases, they later were unequivocal about being happy that they had not gone through with it and I have met their children.
On another two occasions, the women involved ~ again, close friends/family ~ went ahead despite my contribution to their decision-making process, and once they'd made the decision I supported them fully and without reservation.
As for living in a secular society and being a supporter of women's rights ~ more especially women's rights as they would perceive and apply them ~ I think that the law as it stands in the UK is probably a good compromise [my ignorance of the exact details of that law notwithstanding].
06 May 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Yeah, but how is that relevant?
The obvious difference being, a person in a permanent vegetative state often had an opportunity to live his or her life; a baby in the womb that’s aborted didn’t.
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06 May 18
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemI think survival/viability has to be a criterion to some degree otherwise whatever compromise is reached is built upon arguably arbitrary cut-off points which make for a hopeless battlefield on which sides that have such diametrically opposite views seek to apply their favoured restrictions.
Yeah, but how is that relevant?
07 May 18
Originally posted by @fmfI don't see how viability is any less arguable as a criterion than any of the others. None of us are completely viable; we need help from other people and the environment. So it goes with the newborn.
I think survival/viability has to be a criterion to some degree otherwise whatever compromise is reached is built upon arguably arbitrary cut-off points which make for a hopeless battlefield on which sides that have such diametrically opposite views seek to apply their favoured restrictions.
07 May 18
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemI thought we were talking about a foetus and not a newborn baby.
I don't see how viability is any less arguable as a criterion than any of the others. None of us are completely viable; we need help from other people and the environment. So it goes with the newborn.
08 May 18
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemOK, because no one is considering aborting newborn babies, I was thinking along the lines of a foetus' "viability" being its ability to survive outside the uterus. A newborn baby can do this. In fact foetuses from the age of about 24 weeks are seen by doctors as being viable or possibly viable according to this definition. Therefore the criteria pertaining to that "24 weeks" cut off point become crucial to the issue.
I was talking about human viability in general.
Originally posted by @suziannehttps://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/05/03/u2-wants-irelands-abortion-ban-repealed-and-fans-react-a-lot-of-your-songs-now-very-questionable
A reasonable compromise?
This bill would restrict lawful abortions to approx. the first six weeks, which is before many women even know they're pregnant.
This is almost an outright ban on abortion in Iowa. So much for women's rights. No, this is not reasonable. My guess is that it will be found unconstitutional and a clear violation of Roe v. Wade.
Not to worry Suzy, U2 has come out with "Christians" like yourself all in favor of abortion and are coming to the rescue.
They have done a remake of there hit album, "Achtung Baby"
Here is a remake of the song "Zoo Station"
Zoo Station
I'm ready, I'm ready for the laughing gas
I'm ready, I'm ready for what's next
I'm ready to suck it out - I'm ready to end its life
I'm ready to say I'm glad its not alive
I'm ready, I'm ready for the push
In the cool of the night - in the warmth of the breeze
I've been crawling around on my hands and knees
Just down the line - Zoo Station
The end of the line - Zoo Station
I'm ready, I'm ready for the protestors
I'm ready to take it to have it beat
I'm ready for the forcepts - ready for the kill
Ready to let go of the parasite
I'm ready, ready for the crush
Two pops and off with it's skull!
It's alright - it's alright --
It's not really alive, it's not really alive
Hey baby, hey baby --
It's alright - it's alright
Goodbye!.............................Loser.
08 May 18
Of course, children need a song as well. Perhaps Common Core will start having the children sing it in schools around the country.
How about this?
Jesus loves abortions this I know,
For the Bible tells me so;
Little ones to Him belong,
They are weak but He is strong.
Yes, Jesus loves abortions!
Yes, Jesus loves abortions!
Yes, Jesus loves abortions!
The Bible tells me so.
Really, all the Left needs to do is do what U2 has done, which is incorporate abortion and gay marriage and Marxism into the gospels. If you are successful, I'm certain the US will become a Christian theocracy within a few years.
The problem is, however, lots of people have Bibles and can read. Not good.
Deviants like yourself though should not lose heart though.
Originally posted by @whodeyDoes the new Iowa law represent a realistic compromise in your nation where, broadly speaking - among women - 37% think abortion should be generally available, 37% think it should be available but with stricter limits than now, and 24% think it should not be permitted? In real terms, what do you believe the law should be?
Really, all the Left needs to do is do what U2 has done, which is incorporate abortion and gay marriage and Marxism into the gospels. If you are successful, I'm certain the US will become a Christian theocracy within a few years.
The problem is, however, lots of people have Bibles and can read. Not good.
Deviants like yourself though should not lose heart though.
Originally posted by @fmfI don't really care what percentage approve or disapprove of abortion. Factoring this into the issue is a logical fallacy because it has nothing to do with the issue. Besides, you took a poll before Roe vs. Wade, the consensus would have been that abortion was immoral, but now after Roe vs. Wade people would probably say it is not ideal, but OK. All this shows is that people are lemmings to the 9 black robes. But I do understand that public opinion is all Progressives care about. They don't care about right and wrong because they don't believe right and wrong exists. They just want mob rule.
Does the new Iowa law represent a realistic compromise in your nation where, broadly speaking - among women - 37% think abortion should be generally available, 37% think it should be available but with stricter limits than now, and 24% think it should not be permitted? In real terms, what do you believe the law should be?
An unborn child is either a human being with rights like you and I or they are not. From what I have observed, 99,9% of unborn children come out human, so they really must be.
There is that 0.1% though that don't come out human, more than likely because the birth fairy has not come round to wave her magic wand over the fetus as it comes out of the womb to make it human.