28 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressGod allows evil to happen? Then what you're saying is that he isn't omnibenevolent. He is not all-loving. In other words, if he exists, he isn't much of a god at all.
Perhaps God allows these things to happen.
Some people argue that some evil is necessary to bring about the greater good of god's plan. The counter argument is that the great amount of evil evident in the world far exceeds the amount an omnipotent god should have to resort to in order to accomplish his goals.
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by rwingettGod allows evil to happen? Then what you're saying is that he isn't omnibenevolent. He is not all-loving. In other words, if he exists, he isn't much of a god at all.
God allows evil to happen? Then what you're saying is that he isn't omnibenevolent. He is not all-loving. In other words, if he exists, he isn't much of a god at all.
Some people argue that some evil is necessary to bring about the greater good of god's plan. The counter argument is that the great amount of evil evident in the world far exceeds the amount an omnipotent god should have to resort to in order to accomplish his goals.[/b]
Answer me this. How could God give us free will without allowing evil?
Some people argue that some evil is necessary to bring about the greater good of god's plan. The counter argument is that the great amount of evil evident in the world far exceeds the amount an omnipotent god should have to resort to in order to accomplish his goals.
Not really. We existed for an eternity before we got here, and we’ll be around for an eternity after we leave. What difference does a few years here on earth make in comparison to eternity?
28 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressFree will (if it exists at all) is incompatible with an omnipotent, omniscient god.
God allows evil to happen? Then what you're saying is that he isn't omnibenevolent. He is not all-loving. In other words, if he exists, he isn't much of a god at all.
Answer me this. How could God give us free will without allowing evil?
Some people argue that some evil is necessary to bring about the greater good of god's plan. y after we leave. What difference does a few years here on earth make in comparison to eternity?
We existed for an eternity before we got here? What is the scriptural basis for this statement?
Are you claiming that whatever happens in this life is of no consequence and therefore there is no good and evil?
28 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingettFree will (if it exists at all) is incompatible with an omnipotent, omniscient god.
Free will (if it exists at all) is incompatible with an omnipotent, omniscient god.
We existed for an eternity before we got here? What is the scriptural basis for this statement?
Are you claiming that whatever happens in this life is of no consequence and therefore there is no good and evil?[/b]
Negative, free will has everything to do with an omni everything good God. Jesus had free will. He mentioned that he could have chose to defeat the entire Roman army if he had wanted to, but he didn’t. He chose to abide by God’s will.
What would we be like without free will? Mindless slaves, pathetic. God didn’t make us pathetic because he is just that great.
We existed for an eternity before we got here? What is the scriptural basis for this statement?
There are places in the scripture that talk about God knowing us before we were born. I don’t have access to my sources right now, but if you need the verses I’ll provide them in a few hours.
Are you claiming that whatever happens in this life is of no consequence and therefore there is no good and evil?
What? No, that’s not what I’m saying. We were given this time to find God. Those who turn to evil are forced to learn the hard way. There is good and evil, and what we do here makes all the difference.
The time that we spend here on earth learning to accept God, learning what evil is, and sinning along the way does not compare to the end result. God’s goal is to have everybody be perfect like Jesus for all eternity, and God will achieve his goal. Perfect means having free will and always choosing God like Jesus does.
Is it worth it? How can it not be?
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess Express
There are places in the scripture that talk about God knowing us before we were born. I don’t have access to my sources right now, but if you need the verses I’ll provide them in a few hours.
It's in Psalms (I forget where), that God knew us when we were being knit in our mother's
womb. However, that doesn't necessarily indicate that He knew us before we were conceived.
That is, if you hold that the individual comes into existence at conception (the modern
conservative Christian perception), God knows us at that point. God couldn't have known us
before that point because we didn't exist before that point.
We were given this time to find God. Those who turn to evil are forced to learn the hard way. There is good and evil, and what we do here makes all the difference.
The time that we spend here on earth learning to accept God, learning what evil is, and sinning along the way does not compare to the end result. God’s goal is to have everybody be perfect like Jesus for all eternity, and God will achieve his goal. Perfect means having free will and always choosing God like Jesus does.
If God's goal is to have everybody be perfect like Jesus, then why do so many people fail?
Is God incompetent?
That is: Pretend I am a teacher and I have 20 students. If one or two people fail but the others
all excel and get As, then we can deduce that, in all likelihood, I am a good teacher and I had one
or two bad students. However, if 18 people fail and only 2 pass, and with Ds, we might
conclude that I am doing something wrong.
If a teacher has 10 years of classes comprising 200 students, only 10 of which pass, we can
conclude with a great deal of confidence that either 1) 190 students were incompetent; or 2) the
teacher is incompetent, and probably the latter (all other factors being normative).
Here's the rub: If you believe God created each of us with certain capacities, then either His
ability to create was a demonstration of incompetence OR His ability to instruct is profoundly
flawed. That is, either 1) or 2) (or both!) demonstrate God's intrinsic incompetence.
Nemesio
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI know you have been exposed to this exact same argument before. It appears you have either completely failed to understand it, or you failed to retain any of it. At the risk of sounding redundant, I will repeat it for your benefit:
[b]Free will (if it exists at all) is incompatible with an omnipotent, omniscient god.
Negative, free will has everything to do with an omni everything good God. Jesus had free will. He mentioned that he could have chose to defeat the entire Roman army if he had wanted to, but he didn’t. He chose to abide by God’s will.
What would we be ...[text shortened]... having free will and always choosing God like Jesus does.
Is it worth it? How can it not be?[/b]
The appearance of freewill in conjunction with an omnipotent, omniscient creator god is illusory. As god would know, in advance, every choice every person would ever make it is impossible that anyone could ever make a choice that god did not anticipate. If some chain of events is displeasing to god, he could have either altered the starting conditions which brought that event into being, or he could intervene at any point along the causal chain to bring it into line with his wishes.
God supposedly created everything. All the interactions between objects and all future causal chains are caused by him and are known to him in advance. From the very instant of creation,or before, god would have known that Adam and Eve would eventually defy him. This has nothing to do with any "choice" they made, but everything to do with the deterministic starting conditions that god would have set in motion. It is impossible for an omniscient god not to have known the eventual choice Adam and Eve would make because it was he who created all the causal chains which would eventually culminate in that decision. They could not have chosen otherwise. Nothing can happen without god's knowledge. It therefore follows indisputably that everything that happens, happens EXACTLY as god intended it. It is impossible for it to be otherwise.
If Adam and Eve betrayed god, if there is evil in the world, or if everyone falls short of perfection, it is indisputable that these are exactly what god wanted all along. If he wanted them to be otherwise, he would have altered the starting conditions to acheive the desired end result. There is absolutely no room for chance, or personal volition, with an omnipotent and omniscient creator god in charge. None.
If god is as you claim, then there can be no free will. There can only be the appearance of free will.
28 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioIt's in Psalms (I forget where), that God knew us when we were being knit in our mother's womb. However, that doesn't necessarily indicate that He knew us before we were conceived. That is, if you hold that the individual comes into existence at conception (the modern conservative Christian perception), God knows us at that point. God couldn't have known us before that point because we didn't exist before that point.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
There are places in the scripture that talk about God knowing us before we were born. I don’t have access to my sources right now, but if you need the verses I’ll provide them in a few hours. [/b]
It's in Psalms (I forget where), that God knew us when we were being knit in our mother's
womb. However, that do ...[text shortened]... awed. That is, either 1) or 2) (or both!) demonstrate God's intrinsic incompetence.
Nemesio[/b]
No, this is the verse I was referring to.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I
sanctified thee…
Clearly we existed before we were born.
If God's goal is to have everybody be perfect like Jesus, then why do so many people fail?
Is God incompetent?
Nobody fails. All come to God in the end.
I Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior. 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Rom. 14:11 It is written: `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'
Is God incompetent?
No. God has made us all in his image which is perfect. It’s just a matter of us coming to realize our divine nature.
Here's the rub: If you believe God created each of us with certain capacities, then either His ability to create was a demonstration of incompetence OR His ability to instruct is profoundly flawed. That is, either 1) or 2) (or both!) demonstrate God's intrinsic incompetence.
Perhaps our continual insistence on blaming everything on God and not making the effort to find the truth for ourselves is “a demonstration of incompetence.” The truth comes to those who seek it.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when yee shall search for me with all your heart.
28 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettThe appearance of freewill in conjunction with an omnipotent, omniscient creator god is illusory. As god would know, in advance, every choice every person would ever make it is impossible that anyone could ever make a choice that god did not anticipate.
I know you have been exposed to this exact same argument before. It appears you have either completely failed to understand it, or you failed to retain any of it. At the risk of sounding redundant, I will repeat it for your benefit:
The appearance of freewill in conjunction with an omnipotent, omniscient creator god is illusory. As god would know, in advan ...[text shortened]... is as you claim, then there can be no free will. There can only be the appearance of free will.[/b]
If some chain of events is displeasing to god, he could have either altered the starting conditions which brought that event into being, or he could intervene at any point along the causal chain to bring it into line with his wishes.
Just because God knows everything does not mean that he could not have given us free will. God knew that we were going to sin when he gave us free will. God knows what the end result will be, and God knows that it is worth it.
Where is the contradiction? What don’t you understand? If God prevented us from doing evil then we would not have free will. How can we choose God if we don’t have free will?
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Answer me this. How could God give us free will without allowing evil?
God supposedly created everything. All the interactions between objects and all future causal chains are caused by him and are known to him in advance. From the very instant of creation, or before, god would have known that Adam and Eve would eventually defy him. This has nothing to do with any "choice" they made, but everything to do with the deterministic starting conditions that god would have set in motion. It is impossible for an omniscient god not to have known the eventual choice Adam and Eve would make because it was he who created all the causal chains which would eventually culminate in that decision. They could not have chosen otherwise. Nothing can happen without god's knowledge. It therefore follows indisputably that everything that happens, happens EXACTLY as god intended it. It is impossible for it to be otherwise.
God knew these things would happen, and God knows that this is the best way. Again, mindless slaves are pathetic. God wants our hearts, he wants us to choose him. This is the way it has to be.
If Adam and Eve betrayed god, if there is evil in the world, or if everyone falls short of perfection, it is indisputable that these are exactly what god wanted all along.
No, God hates evil. It’s "indisputable" that he wants us to choose him and not be mindless slaves. We are perfect. We are made in God’s image. We just need to realize this, hence the term self-realization.
If he wanted them to be otherwise, he would have altered the starting conditions to achieve the desired end result. There is absolutely no room for chance, or personal volition, with an omnipotent and omniscient creator god in charge. None.
You’re assuming that God is a dictator. Don’t confuse God with Sadam Hussein. God gave us free will so that we could choose him. God set the starting conditions so that everybody will eventually do this.
If god is as you claim, then there can be no free will. There can only be the appearance of free will.
The ultimate outcome is predetermined this is true. Everybody goes back to God in the end. How difficult the journey is, and how long it takes us to get there is entirely up to us. This part of it is determined by the choices we make. This is where our free will comes into play.
28 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressLet us review:
The appearance of freewill in conjunction with an omnipotent, omniscient creator god is illusory. As god would know, in advance, every choice every person would ever make it is impossible that anyone could ever make a choice that god did not anticipate.
If some chain of events is displeasing to god, he could have either altered the starting con is part of it is determined by the choices we make. This is where our free will comes into play.
1. God has an end result in mind, the ultimate outcome of which is predetermined.
2. It doesn't matter what we choose en route, it will not change that outcome.
3. God knows all the choices we will make. He knew we would sin.
4. It is not a matter of IF we would sin, but WHEN. Since god knows exactly when we would sin, the outcome is preordained. There is no choice involved. It's simply a matter of fulfilling god's plan, which proceeds exactly according to his wishes.
If god did not know in advance if we would sin, but had to wait around to find out, then you could make an argument for free will. But since we are supposedly created by god and he knows all our choices in advance, free will is only an illusion because we could not have acted differently.
28 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettLet us review:
Let us review:
1. God has an end result in mind, the ultimate outcome of which is predetermined.
2. It doesn't matter what we choose en route, it will not change that outcome.
3. God knows all the choices we will make. He knew we would sin.
4. It is not a matter of IF we would sin, but WHEN. Since god knows exactly when we would sin, the outcome es in advance, free will is only an illusion because we could not have acted differently[/b].[/b]
1. God has an end result in mind, the ultimate outcome of which is predetermined.
Yes.
2. It doesn't matter what we choose en route, it will not change that outcome.
The final outcome stays the same. This is true, but the choices that we make matter a great deal. We only find God if we accept God. If we reject God then we don’t find God.
The reason why I say that the outcome is predetermined is because everybody will eventually choose God. If not in this life then in the next, or the next, or the next and so on.
The reason why I say the choices matter is because this determines how quickly and easily we come to know God.
Would you like to find God in this lifetime, or in a thousand lifetimes?
3. God knows all the choices we will make. He knew we would sin.
True.
4. It is not a matter of IF we would sin, but WHEN. Since god knows exactly when we would sin, the outcome is preordained. There is no choice involved. It's simply a matter of fulfilling god's plan, which proceeds exactly according to his wishes.
Not exactly. God never wants us to sin, but God knows that this is part of our journey back to him. God knows that in the end it is worth it.
If god did not know in advance if we would sin, but had to wait around to find out, then you could make an argument for free will. But since we are supposedly created by god and he knows all our choices in advance, free will is only an illusion because [b]we could not have acted differently.
[/b]I see your point. Life is full of choices. We can choose to set fire to our house and then we don’t have a house. We can choose to bet every last penny we have on a long shot at the track, and then we don’t have anymore money. We are free to make these types of decisions, so free will does exist.
God would not tell us all throughout the Bible to not sin, to examine our ways, to make the proper choices if this part of it was all prearranged. Jesus would never have had to come down here, and we would be back to being mindless slaves. This is not the case. We do have free will.
For some reason a good analogy escapes me at the moment. I’ll think of one though.
How does God know what we’ll do? That’s a good question for God. According to scripture God created us, God is in all of us, and God knows us all a lot better than we know ourselves.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I sanctified thee…
If God knows us a lot better than we know ourselves, this might explain it. Anyway, this is about as much sense as I can make of it.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Is.55:8-9. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
The Lord works in mysterious ways.
Edit: That is until we find him.
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressHe could allow us to choose between non-evil things. I don't understand why free will should just be about choosing between good and evil. And I believe that most people who do something evil don't really choose between good and evil, but act out of desparation, not seeing any other choices, or because they lose control over their emotions, or because they blindly follow someone else. And most people don't enjoy doing evil things either. So if this is all "free will" is about, I don't see much value in it.
Answer me this. How could God give us free will without allowing evil?