Originally posted by The Chess ExpressSo, you believe that no one goes to Hell?
[b]You're just making things up that have nothing to do with the
premise being examined.
To remind you:
If people go to Hell, you acknolwedge that people fail in their Divine
Calling to 'come to God.'
You’ve never understood my premise. All People go back to God in the end. Some learn the hard way, some the easy way.
This answers the rest of you’re post.[/b]
Originally posted by NemesioSome go through hell.
So, you believe that no one goes to Hell?
Psalm 16:9-11 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Psalm 18:4-6 The sorrows of death encompassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. The sorrows of hell encompassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
This is one of a number of accounts in the Bible that talk about people going to hell and getting released again.
Somebody has to take responsibility for the unforgiven evil that occurs here on earth. You think it should be God, I say we are responsible for our actions. This is where we disagree.
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThis is like the RCC notion of Purgatory (which I rather have an affinity for).
This is one of a number of accounts in the Bible that talk about people going to hell and getting released again.
Somebody has to take responsibility for the unforgiven evil that occurs here on earth. You think it should be God, I say we are responsible for our actions. This is where we disagree.
That is, it is a place where you are separated from God for a period of time
where you come to know the nature and impact of your offenses.
This is very different than the 'orthodox' notion of Hell, which in just about
every Christian writing I've ever read is a permanent thing.
As such, we were, in many ways, talking across each other because we didn't
agree on basic terminology. For you Hell is a transitional state (just like
Purgatory). For most, it is not.
Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressTo be clear: we do not disagree. We were confused with each other's use
Somebody has to take responsibility for the unforgiven evil that occurs here on earth. You think it should be God, I say we are responsible for our actions. This is where we disagree.
of the term Hell. Your Hell is my 'Purgatory,' as it were.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI’m glad that we’ve managed to reach some common ground. I don’t believe it’s possible for a soul to be eternally doomed either.
To be clear: we do [b]not disagree. We were confused with each other's use
of the term Hell. Your Hell is my 'Purgatory,' as it were.
Nemesio[/b]
Originally posted by windmillHow do you reconcile you’re belief with these verses?
I believe there is an eternity in Hell.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without inequity, just and right is he.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressLet me jump in for a second.
How do you reconcile you’re belief with these verses?
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without inequity, just and right is he.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
In St Luke 16:19-31, Jesus makes it pretty clear that Heaven and Hell
are separate, that Lazarus and the rich man are utterly unable to interact
save by 'shouting' across the chasm. While it doesn't state that Hell is
a permanent state in this passage, Jesus does make it clear that
Hell is a permanent state in St Matthew 18:6-9, specifically in 8 and 9
which reads: ...it is better to enter into life maimed or crippled than with
two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire...it is better
for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into
fiery Gehenna.
That's why I feel the term 'Purgatory' (despite its Tridentine baggage) is
a better term than Hell, because I think it is unambiguous that those who
arrive in Hell aren't leaving (i.e., eternal fire).
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI agree that Heaven is separate from hell for obvious reasons. How could they not be?
Let me jump in for a second.
In St Luke 16:19-31, Jesus makes it pretty clear that Heaven and Hell
are separate, that Lazarus and the rich man are utterly unable to interact
save by 'shouting' across the chasm. While it doesn't state that Hell is
a permanent state in this passage, Jesus does make it clear that
Hell is a permanent state in S ...[text shortened]... t is unambiguous that those who
arrive in Hell aren't leaving (i.e., eternal fire).
Nemesio
I don’t believe that the verses you cited say what you claim they say. Personally, I believe that hell may be eternal, but that doesn’t mean that souls go there forever.
Matt 18:8 “…to be cast into everlasting fire.” (KJV)
Think about it. If God has this great big fire going, and new souls are constantly feeding the fire as old souls are leaving, the fire may be eternal, but that doesn’t mean that a soul stays there forever.
I realize that this is just my way of interpreting it. The majority of Christian churches (like the ones blindfaith attends) want us to believe that God would forever condemn a soul to hell. This position contradicts too many passages in the Bible for me to take it seriously. Take a look at my post on page 16 of the “Blindfaith101 - Question for you…” thread to see what I mean.
If you keep reading in Matt 18 you’ll get to the parable of the wicked servant, Matt 18:23-35. This parable is interesting because Jesus describes what happens to a soul who goes to hell. Pay attention to verse 34
Matt 18:34 “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.”
Notice how Jesus says that hell is just to repay the souls debt? The scripture says in many places that God is fair, full of love and mercy, and will only do unto us as we do unto others. By these parameters it is impossible for God to condemn a soul forever because we are not here on earth forever. It also means that God forgives those who turn to him. In this way hell can be avoided all together.
I’m not too familiar with purgatory. What exactly is it? Does the scripture mention it?
Originally posted by The Chess Express
I don’t believe that the verses you cited say what you claim they say. Personally, I believe that hell may be eternal, but that doesn’t mean that souls go there forever.
...
Think about it. If God has this great big fire going, and new souls are constantly feeding the fire as old souls are leaving, the fire may be eternal, but that doesn’t mean that a soul stays there forever.
I realize that this is just my way of interpreting it. The majority of Christian churches (like the ones blindfaith attends) want us to believe that God would forever condemn a soul to hell. This position contradicts too many passages in the Bible for me to take it seriously. Take a look at my post on page 16 of the “Blindfaith101 - Question for you…” thread to see what I mean.
You are correct. I was interpolating based on what I recall about hearing about
Hell. I was bringing baggage to my interpretations of the Scriptures I cited.
However, I have found two Scripture citations which indicate that souls remain in Hell
forever. II Thessalonians 1:5-10, particularly verse 9 (These [non-obeyers of the Gospel]
will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from
the glory of his power...), and St Matthew 25:31-46, particularly the final verse (And these
[goats] will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life).
Notice how Jesus says that hell is just to repay the souls debt? The scripture says in many places that God is fair, full of love and mercy, and will only do unto us as we do unto others. By these parameters it is impossible for God to condemn a soul forever because we are not here on earth forever. It also means that God forgives those who turn to him. In this way hell can be avoided all together.
This tends to concord with my viewpoint, but it is not supported by the concepts of Hell
as eternal described above.
I’m not too familiar with purgatory. What exactly is it? Does the scripture mention it?
It's a Roman Catholic doctrine which entails that there is some intermediate state of
indeterminate nature during which time you are separated from God and Heaven in
repayment of the sins you committed on earth.
It is an invention of the Church in the sense that it was not a doctrine which is clearly
articulated by the Bible (although there is some very loose support for it, particularly
in II Maccabees) and was not part of the early Church tradition. The first mention of
any intermediate state was by Pope St Gregory the Great (if I recall correctly), although
he was speaking generally, not authoritatively.
As a doctrine, it came into being around the 11th-12th centuries, first innocently but
was ultimately used as a vehicle for control, manipulation and greed by the Church.
The Church, as I am sure you know, teaches that priests can absolve sins and, as per
teaching, you cannot enter Heaven with the stain of mortal sin upon you. So, the
Church sold indulgences to 'expiate' sins and sold priestly services to pray for the
forgiveness of souls in Purgatory. Purgatory became a sort of way to threaten people,
specifically, by telling them that committing x,y,z sins, that they would spend a,b,c
years in Purgatory. It got to the point where the Church was publishing official lists
of sins with the time-penalty listed (10 days for each lie, 1000 years for murder, &c,
&c), and you could 'buy' your way out of it.
These actions by the corrupt Church neither represented the intial teachings of either
indulgences or Purgatory (which arose roughly at the same time) and were abandoned
by the Church in the 20th century. They were a product of perversity and abuse of
power which they have since backed away from. The initial teachings were innocent
and reasonable and the Church has since reverted back to those concepts.
I have NO DOUBT that Ivanhoe will have words for this, being our resident Roman
Catholic, though I would much more trust Lucifershammer if he cares to ring in.
Nemesio
Originally posted by Nemesio[/b]Originally posted by The Chess Express
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I don’t believe that the verses you cited say what you claim they say. Personally, I believe that hell may be eternal, but that doesn’t mean that souls go there forever.
...
Think about it. If God has this great big fire going, and new souls are constantly feeding the fire as old souls are leaving, the f ...[text shortened]... oman
Catholic, though I would much more trust Lucifershammer if he cares to ring in.
Nemesio
Notice how Jesus says that hell is just to repay the souls debt? The scripture says in many places that God is fair, full of love and mercy, and will only do unto us as we do unto others. By these parameters it is impossible for God to condemn a soul forever because we are not here on earth forever. It also means that God forgives those who turn to him. In this way hell can be avoided all together.
This tends to concord with my viewpoint, but it is not supported by the concepts of Hell… I have found two Scripture citations which indicate that souls remain in Hell
forever. II Thessalonians 1:5-10, particularly verse 9 (These [non-obeyers of the Gospel]
will pay the penalty of [b]eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power...), and St Matthew 25:31-46, particularly the final verse (And these [goats] will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life).[/b]
II Thess 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Tuff verses, consider for a moment how Jesus’ and David’s account of hell compare to these.
Psalm 16:9-11 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Psalm 18:4-6 The sorrows of death encompassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. The sorrows of hell encompassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
Psalm 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
David says that he encountered “death” in hell. Consider what this means. Death is synonymous with destruction and cessation. According to the Encarta dictionary
Death = 1. End of being alive: the ending of all vital functions or processes in an organism or cell. 2. End of something: the destruction or extinction of something.
Edit: It is also interesting to note that David speaks of multiple levels of hell. It follows then that there must be multiple levels of Heaven as well. It could be that when a good person dies who hasn’t found God yet, they go to a lower Heaven until they complete their journey. This is pure speculation.
Now consider what Jesus says about hell.
Matt 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Here Jesus says that hell is just to repay our unforgiven debts. Jesus also explains what it means to be dead when he told his disciples to let the dead bury the dead. I don’t have this verse handy, but if you insist I’ll find it for you.
Basically, sin is the death, the destruction. Sin is separation from God. Since God is everything that is good, to be separated from him is to suffer. David agrees with Jesus on this point.
Psalm 73:3-4 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
Here David acknowledges that sin is death.
Psalm 59:13-14 Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah. 14 And at the evening let them return; and let them make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city.
Here David speaks about what it means to be erased from existence. God consumes the wicked so that they “may not be“, in another words, they are destroyed, gone, but then God brings them back when their debt has been paid.
The above passage also speaks of reincarnation in my opinion. The wicked burn of their sins in hell, and then are given tuff lives here on earth or some place like it. In this way they learn.
Psalm 48:14 For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.
Psalm 30:5 & 9 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the mourning. 9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?
Here David acknowledges what God knows. There is nothing to be gained by leaving a soul in hell forever. If God did this, there would be nobody around to praise him.
As long as we are away from God, we are dead. We don’t exist. We are not who we truly are. Sin is the death, and hell burns off our sin. After this happens we are free of sin, and free to continue our journey back to God. Both Jesus and David agree on this.
Going back to the verses you cited…
II Thess 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Sin and destruction are eternal. There will always be evil to contrast good. This passage is not saying that the wicked will be punished eternally, it is saying that they will be punished with eternal death.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This verse is saying the same thing.
It's a Roman Catholic doctrine which entails that there is some intermediate state of
indeterminate nature during which time you are separated from God and Heaven in
repayment of the sins you committed on earth.
It is an invention of the Church in the sense that it was not a doctrine which is clearly
articulated by the Bible (although there is some very loose support for it, particularly
in II Maccabees) and was not part of the early Church tradition. The first mention of
any intermediate state was by Pope St Gregory the Great (if I recall correctly), although
he was speaking generally, not authoritatively.
As a doctrine, it came into being around the 11th-12th centuries, first innocently but
was ultimately used as a vehicle for control, manipulation and greed by the Church.
The Church, as I am sure you know, teaches that priests can absolve sins and, as per
teaching, you cannot enter Heaven with the stain of mortal sin upon you. So, the
Church sold indulgences to 'expiate' sins and sold priestly services to pray for the
forgiveness of souls in Purgatory. Purgatory became a sort of way to threaten people,
specifically, by telling them that committing x,y,z sins, that they would spend a,b,c
years in Purgatory. It got to the point where the Church was publishing official lists
of sins with the time-penalty listed (10 days for each lie, 1000 years for murder, &c,
&c), and you could 'buy' your way out of it.
These actions by the corrupt Church neither represented the intial teachings of either
indulgences or Purgatory (which arose roughly at the same time) and were abandoned
by the Church in the 20th century. They were a product of perversity and abuse of
power which they have since backed away from. The initial teachings were innocent
and reasonable and the Church has since reverted back to those concepts.
This must have been what Luther fought against. I’ll take a look at II Maccabees.