13 Mar 14
1 edit
"I. Where is heaven?"
"There are three things I can tell you in answer to this question. The most important fact is that heaven is a real place. Listen to the words of Jesus on the night before he was crucified:
'Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.' (John 14:1-3).
Twice in three verses Jesus calls heaven a place. He means that heaven ["my Father's house"] is a real place, as real as New York, London or Chicago. The place called heaven is just as real as the place you call home. It's a real place filled with real people, which is why the Bible sometimes compares heaven to a mansion with many rooms (John 14:1-3) and sometimes to an enormous city teeming with people (Revelation 21).
The Bible also tells us that heaven is the dwelling place of God. His throne is there, the angels are there, and the Lord Jesus Christ is in heaven. Philippians 3:20 says very plainly that "our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." That's why Jesus told the thief on the Cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).
The Bible also tells us that heaven is the dwelling place of God. His throne is there, the angels are there, and the Lord Jesus Christ is in heaven. Philippians 3:20 says very plainly that "our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." That's why Jesus told the thief on the Cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)." (I.a of VII)
http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-is-heaven-like-11636670.html
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14 Mar 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThanks that clears up a lot of my thinking about your ideas on being able to decide to believe something.
Originally posted by JS357
[b]Ah, is this a breakthrough in our communication?
You say "I decided 'yes' I believe," not "I decided to believe."
Deciding that you believe something is different than deciding to believe something, in my book.
"I said: "Yes, Father; I do believe in your only Son Jesus Christ". (reply)
...[text shortened]... riate if I had actively
resisted the offer of a Grace Gift... my context was positive interest.[/b]
14 Mar 14
2 edits
Originally posted by JS357You're welcome, JS. Here's an overly simplified negative/positive volition graphic that encompasses the continuum for me:
Thanks that clears up a lot of my thinking about your ideas on being able to decide to believe something.
[Adamantly NO]...... [Not Interested Now]...... [Hmm... Maybe]..... [Still have Doubts but Okay]...... [Absolutely Yes]
14 Mar 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasAs you didn't answer the question I repost the same again:
Q - By whom? A - Paul the Apostle
Okay...
Q - Of his own experience? A - yes (and documented)
Okay... by reading the bible, or...? Please clarify.
Q - Anyone who has been there and turned back? A - no, though many were kicked out as the result of a prehistoric revolt.
So there are no turning back to convince anyone?
I know that there is a New ...[text shortened]... ne that has been in heaven and taking back anything from it. Well, perhaps LSD-hallucinations...
Originally posted by FabianFnas
Q - By whom? A - Paul the Apostle
Okay...
Q - Of his own experience? A - yes (and documented)
Okay... by reading the bible, or...? Please clarify.
Q - Anyone who has been there and turned back? A - no, though many were kicked out as the result of a prehistoric revolt.
So there are no turning back to convince anyone?
I know that there is a New York. I've been there, I've taken photographs, I've bought souvenirs.
I don't know anyone that has been in heaven and taking back anything from it. Well, perhaps LSD-hallucinations...
Noone who has been there can ever testify that there is a heaven. So this is only a religious opinion. Nothing more. So if there is a heaven or not, we will never know.
You can quote anyone and you only quote theirs religious opinion. It is worth exactly as much as my opinion. And I don't know either. Why would anyone know more than me or them?
But this is not science. It cannot be proven, nor tested. That's why we call it religion.
14 Mar 14
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasOriginally posted by FabianFnas
As you didn't answer the question I repost the same again:
Originally posted by FabianFnas
[b]Q - By whom? A - Paul the Apostle
Okay...
Q - Of his own experience? A - yes (and documented)
Okay... by reading the bible, or...? Please clarify.
Q - Anyone who has been there and turned back? A - no, though many were kicked out as the result ...[text shortened]... em?
But this is not science. It cannot be proven, nor tested. That's why we call it religion.
As you didn't answer the question I repost the same again:
Page 6:
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by FabianFnas
Q - By whom? A - Paul the Apostle
Okay...
Q - Of his own experience? A - yes (and documented)
Okay... by reading the bible, or...? Please clarify. >[2 Corinthians 12:2]
Q - Anyone who has been there and turned back? A - no, though many were kicked out as the result of a prehistoric revolt.
So there are no turning back to convince anyone?
> [Christ Himself was rejected; would a human be believed or taken to an asylum?]
I know that there is a New York. I've been there, I've taken photographs, I've bought souvenirs.
I don't know anyone that has been in heaven and taking back anything from it. Well, perhaps LSD-hallucinations...
_______________________________________
"Heaven is a place, just as much a place as is New York or Chicago." Charles Ferguson Ball
"Everyone wants to know about heaven and everyone wants to go there. Recent polls suggest that nearly 80% of all Americans believe there is a place called heaven. I find that statistic encouraging because it tells me that even in this skeptical age there is something deep inside the human heart that cries out, "There's got to be something more. Something more than the pain and suffering of this life. Something more than 70 or 80 years on planet earth. Something more than being born, living, dying, and then being buried in the ground. Sometimes we talk about a "God-shaped vacuum" inside the human heart. I believe there is also a "heaven-shaped vacuum," a sense that we were made for something more than this life. We were made to live forever somewhere. In a real sense we were made for heaven.
There is another fascinating statistic I should mention. Not only do most Americans believe in heaven, most people expect to go there when they die. If you took a microphone to the streets of Chicago and asked, "Do you think you will go to heaven when you die?" the vast majority of people would answer, "I hope so," or "I think so," or perhaps "I think I've got a good chance. Not very many people would say they aren't going to heaven. Perhaps one modest point is in order. Whenever you talk about living forever somewhere, it would help to know for sure where you are going. After all, if you're wrong about heaven, you're going to be wrong for a long, long time.
With that as background, I turn now to consider some of the most frequently-asked questions about heaven. But before I jump in, I should make one preliminary point. The only things we can know for certain about heaven are the things revealed in the Bible. Everything else is just speculation and hearsay. The Bible tells us everything we need to know and I believe it also tells us everything we can know for certain about heaven."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-is-heaven-like-11636670.html
14 Mar 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyOkay, if this is your answer I must come to the conclusion that you don't know anything about the heaven. Nothing at all. You don't even have any opinion because you only give me quotes of what other think, of their opinions.
Originally posted by FabianFnas
As you didn't answer the question I repost the same again:
Page 6:Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by FabianFnas
Q - By whom? A - Paul the Apostle
Okay...
Q - Of his own experience? A - yes (and documented)
Okay... by reading the bible, or...? Please clarify. [ ...[text shortened]... ://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-is-heaven-like-11636670.html
You are good in paste©, I give you that.
14 Mar 14
2 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnasFabian, here's the text of the previously referenced experience of the Apostle Paul [human being] in the Third Heaven:
Okay, if this is your answer I must come to the conclusion that you don't know anything about the heaven. Nothing at all. You don't even have any opinion because you only give me quotes of what other think, of their opinions.
You are good in paste©, I give you that.
2 Corinthians 12:1-7 New American Standard Bible: "1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. 6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me."
Notes: 2 CORINTHIANS 12: PAUL/Third Heaven: v. 1 Expedient" means "necessary." v. 2 Fourteen years earlier, Paul was stoned in Lystra. His friends thought he was dead. Paul himself didn't know if he was dead or alive. Perhaps this was the occasion of Paul's experience. The "third heaven" refers to the dwelling place of God. The first heaven is the atmosphere around the earth. The second heaven is the celestial heaven of the sun and moon. v. 4 Paul's experience was beyond his capacity to describe it."
v. 5 Paul chose to glory in his weaknesses rather than in his experiences, ministry, or spiritual power."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/smith_chuck/StudyGuides_2Corinthians/2Corinthians.cfm?a=1090002
14 Mar 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAnd why do you think Paul would write such a passage? Of some reason? Or do you really think he meant everything of these words? And he knew the truth?
Fabian, here's the text of the previously referenced experience of the Apostle Paul [human being] in the Third Heaven:
2 Corinthians 12:1-7 New American Standard Bible: "1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 [i]I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body ...[text shortened]... p://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/smith_chuck/StudyGuides_2Corinthians/2Corinthians.cfm?a=1090002
14 Mar 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasOriginally posted by FabianFnas
And why do you think Paul would write such a passage? Of some reason? Or do you really think he meant everything of these words? And he knew the truth?
And why do you think Paul would write such a passage? Of some reason? Or do you really think he meant everything of these words? And he knew the truth?
The event happened: God the Holy Spirit inspired him to include it in 2 Corinthians. Yes. The Verbal Plenary Inspiration applies to the very words themselves: by definition, therefore, an actual occurrence and accurately reported. Yes.