path to truth

Originally posted by @black-beetle
No.
You cannot come up with a non-subjective way of determining which subjective impressions of ours support knowledge of “objective reality” before the subjective formation of subjectively accessible markers of the reliable subjective impressions. All the methods as regards knowledge, judgment and thought are grounded strictly on subjective impressio ...[text shortened]... use “objective reality” is grounded strictly on our consensus over our collective subjectivity😵

I think the technical verbiage I would use to describe what you said is BS! Opinions all take place between the ears, reality isn’t dependent upon what any of us think, feel, or observe.

The dark side of the moon doesn’t disappear because no is observing it and reappears when we do. Neither was the moon inhabitable without special suites, because at one time someone thought that was the case.

Your mind is given to much credit if you think reality bends to its conclusions, instead of your opinions.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I think the technical verbiage I would use to describe what you said is BS! Opinions all take place between the ears, reality isn’t dependent upon what any of us think, feel, or observe.

The dark side of the moon doesn’t disappear because no is observing it and reappears when we do. Neither was the moon inhabitable without special suites, because at one ...[text shortened]... is given to much credit if you think reality bends to its conclusions, instead of your opinions.

Your assumption is false.

I said not that when I close my eyes the whole world disappears; I said not that when I see an object of vision, that object exists because I made it existent thanks to my sight.
The same holds as regards ear and sound, nose and odor, tongue and taste, body and touch, mind and mental objects.

I said there is no reality available to us human beings other than the one verified by us herenow as the product of our reliable subjective impressions and our verified in practice herenow evaluations of the mind. Solely this kind of reality is considered "objective" by us, and it is strictly grounded on our collective subjectivity.
If you think there is any other reality than that, and if you are sure that you can comment ...objectively (the way you mean it) as regards this condition, fine. Kindly please educate me😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Your assumption is false.

I said not that when I close my eyeis the whole world disappears; I said not that when I see an object of vision, that object exists because I made it existent thanks to my sight.
The same holds as regards ear and sound, nose and odor, tongue and taste, body and touch, mind and mental objects.

I said there is no reality ...[text shortened]... ...objectively (the way you mean it) as regards this condition, fine. Kindly please educate me😵

Opinions and reality are the same to you?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Opinions and reality are the same to you?

This is not a reply to the quoted by you post of mine.

If you think there is any other reality than the one I described you just above, and if you are sure you can comment ...objectively (the way you mean it) as regards this condition, kindly please expand😵

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Opinions and reality are the same to you?

Although I evaluate this question of yours as not an answer and completely irrelevant to the post of mine you quoted and replied, for the sake of the conversation (and just in case you have a point which I unfortunately miss) I will give you my fair answer:

Big cats and superbikes. Opinions and reality. Opinions are opinions, reality is reality. Since they are different by definition, it is untenable to claim they are "the same"😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
...
I said there is no reality available to us human beings other than the one verified by us herenow as the product of our reliable subjective impressions and our verified in practice herenow evaluations of the mind...

Of course you are right.Even revelations from the gods come to us via subjective experience. And we think about them, as you say, which is again a subjective experience.

Originally posted by @apathist
Of course you are right.Even revelations from the gods come to us via subjective experience. And we think about them, as you say, which is again a subjective experience.

No our grasp of truth doesn’t change truth only our opinions of it. You could be completely convinced of something, be wrong about it to the point where lives are lost.

Even Jesus told us we needed eyes to see, and in a discussion with someone who claimed that they understood something, that because of that claim that they could see, they would have no excuses.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
God sees things as they are, we don't have what it takes to truly grasp reality! We cannot
even look at one another or listen to one another and grasp reality, instead our
assumptions abound and we start to paint one another in our hearts making each out to
be what we think people are, instead of what they really are. Perspectives of plants, dogs,
bird ...[text shortened]... nd designed it, as well
as holds it all together.

Edit: Have you ever read "Watership Down"?

Watership Down about the rabbits ?
Haven't heard about that in years.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
No our grasp of truth doesn’t change truth only our opinions of it. You could be completely convinced of something, be wrong about it to the point where lives are lost.

Even Jesus told us we needed eyes to see, and in a discussion with someone who claimed that they understood something, that because of that claim that they could see, they would have no excuses.

OK, you appear sure that this is the case.

Kindly please expand and explain in detail how exactly a specific "truth", of whose core nature you have not even a single one trace of subjective experience, can, for one, be accessible by your awareness.
For two, kindly please explain how and by what means you can be dead sure that you ruled out all the possibilities to be wrong as regards the validity herenow of that "truth".
For three, kindly please demonstrate how exactly and by what means this specific "truth" is evaluated by you as "objectively" existent😵

Originally posted by @apathist
Of course you are right.Even revelations from the gods come to us via subjective experience. And we think about them, as you say, which is again a subjective experience.

Yes😵

Originally posted by @sonship
Watership Down about the rabbits ?
Haven't heard about that in years.

One of my all time favorite books!

Originally posted by @black-beetle
OK, you appear sure that this is the case.

Kindly please expand and explain in detail how exactly a specific "truth", of whose core nature you have not even a single one trace of subjective experience, can, for one, be accessible by your awareness.
For two, kindly please explain how and by what means you can be dead sure that you ruled out all the ...[text shortened]... exactly and by what means this specific "truth" is evaluated by you as "objectively" existent😵

Let me think about this.

Originally posted by @black-beetle
OK, you appear sure that this is the case.

Kindly please expand and explain in detail how exactly a specific "truth", of whose core nature you have not even a single one trace of subjective experience, can, for one, be accessible by your awareness.
For two, kindly please explain how and by what means you can be dead sure that you ruled out all the ...[text shortened]... exactly and by what means this specific "truth" is evaluated by you as "objectively" existent😵

I've been claiming that reality doesn't depend on you, your thoughts, your musing, your
evaluation, neither does it mine. What is real will be, even if none of us are ware or
unaware of the truth of it. If this were not true we would not always be changing our points
of view as we come to understand more, reality never changes, we are the ones that
must change our thoughts, musings evaluations, and opinions of it. We see it is our
perspectives, points of view, opinions all take a back seat to what is real, reality forces us
to change them to suit it, not the other way around.

This is true throughout the whole of natural world, but the same thing is true of the
spiritual world as well, one doesn't have to acknowledge it to make it part of reality, our
accepting isn’t required, we will have to change to suit it, again not the other way around.

God is the only one that sees it for what it is, He sees everything for what it is, since He
is the author and finisher of creation. Our connection to creation is just to be a part of it,
but when we broke from God we lost our place in it. Now we want to take on God's part in
the universe, calling what we will good and evil, and making our judgment calls upon
creation, attempting to shape it in our thoughts, to make it appear the way we want it to
be in our hearts. We are failures at this of course, because it is us who has to change our
views when reality refuses to mold itself to our liking, thoughts, or opinions.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I've been claiming that reality doesn't depend on you, your thoughts, your musing, your
evaluation, neither does it mine. What is real will be, even if none of us are ware or
unaware of the truth of it. If this were not true we would not always be changing our points
of view as we come to understand more, reality never changes, we are the ones that
mus ...[text shortened]... s to change our
views when reality refuses to mold itself to our liking, thoughts, or opinions.

This whole strings of thought is untenable.

You see, Kellyjay, Reality does change.
The tree in front of you, was not there before its manifestation, although the potentiality of the manifestation of its existence was hidden in the quantum uncertainty; and it will not be there after some time, because it will be hidden in the quantum uncertainty. This holds herenow as regards every sentient being and everything else that is either part of Kosmos, or is hidden herenow for the potentiality for its manifestation is not yet activated because this is not yet possible according to the given herenow causes and conditions.

Since any sentient being perceives and deciphers (strictly by means of its mental activity and thus purely subjectively) just a fractal of the above mentioned kosmic reality, as you also said earlier at this thread, it simply cannot perceive the kosmic reality neither "objectively", nor holistically. Therefore, you can comment strictly on the given purely subjective perspective of yours as regards reality. The rest of reality is unknown to you, and therefore you cannot comment about it. Any attempt to comment about the unknown to you reality is grounded strictly on blind beliefs.

The rest of your post is a declaration of your religious beliefs and is irrelevant to our conversation; and your whole post is simply your purely subjective string of thoughts, which does not answer my questions posed at the quoted by you post of mine😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
This whole strings of thought is untenable.

You see, Kellyjay, Reality does change.
The tree in front of you, was not there before its manifestation, although the potentiality of the manifestation of its existence was hidden in the quantum uncertainty; and it will not be there after some time, because it will be hidden in the quantum uncertainty. T ...[text shortened]... string of thoughts, which does not answer my questions posed at the quoted by you post of mine😵

Yes, reality changes not however due to your thoughts. With both God and the universe,
they are what they are. Your knowledge of either changes as the manifestation of both
drives you to constantly evaluate everything once you realize they are not what you
thought or hoped.

It is you, not the universe around you that is deeply affected by your thoughts, opinions,
perspectives, assumptions, and so on, again not the other way around. You have cut
yourself off from the source of life, the grand truth of the universe, the way we should be
walking, by telling yourself what a viable view of the universe looks like. You paint the
universe around to look like you think it should in your mind, then as you go about your
day, you change your opinion, point of view as the world becomes something else as you
look at and experience it, because all things are what they are, with, or without you,

You are walking around in the universe which you can see, touch, taste, feel, hear and
are always in a constant state of having to evaluate what you take in when you realize it
isn’t what you thought. I will submit to you God is no different, He too is so much more
than what your mind thinks He is, which isn’t too difficult at this time, since you reject He is
real at all, so currently it is a low bar for you. 🙂