path to truth

Originally posted by @kellyjay
The universe is available to us, but still, it is us who look at it with the filters we possess
that is our lives, it isn't that we get don't get clear picture of it, we just don't grasp it, we see
it all as though through a glass darkly, because of our filters. If we didn't we would never
have to alter our views once we have made our judgments.

So i ...[text shortened]... telling you, you don't own reality, you just see it in the dim light that
is you, as do we all.

Edit: “If we didn't we would never have to alter our views once we have made our judgments.”


We alter our views simply because step by step we gain knowledge and hence insight, not because we proceed by means of Faith. On the other hand, we do not have to alter our views as regards issues which are conclusively settled down in practice. No faith required😵

Originally posted by @kellyjay
The universe is available to us, but still, it is us who look at it with the filters we possess
that is our lives, it isn't that we get don't get clear picture of it, we just don't grasp it, we see
it all as though through a glass darkly, because of our filters. If we didn't we would never
have to alter our views once we have made our judgments.

So i ...[text shortened]... telling you, you don't own reality, you just see it in the dim light that
is you, as do we all.

Edit: “So it is as I have been telling you, you don't own reality, you just see it in the dim light that is you, as do we all.”


This assumption of yours has nothing to do with me. I do not argue that “I own reality”.
I argue that everybody’s perception and sensemaking about the exact nature of the reality she perceives, is purely subjective, regardless if it is grounded on scientific facts and evidence or on blind religious beliefs.

Therefore:

I understand that your subjective evaluation takes place also on the basis of the religious doctrine that you accept strictly by Faith as “Absolutely True”, and so your view never changes in any way that could ever contradict your subjective religious beliefs. So you are constantly forced to defend your religion and to keep up looking for the “correct”, according to your religious beliefs, outcome. This is Your path to Your Truth.

On the contrary, my subjective evaluation as regards everything takes place strictly on the basis of the evaluation of the mind, and is ever-changing in the light of new scientific facts and evidence. I have nothing to defend. This is My path to My Truth😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Edit: “So it is as I have been telling you, you don't own reality, you just see it in the dim light that is you, as do we all.”


This assumption of yours has nothing to do with me. I do not argue that “I own reality”.
I argue that everybody’s perception and sensemaking about the exact nature of the reality she perceives, is purely subjective, rega ...[text shortened]... ht of new scientific facts and evidence. I have nothing to defend. This is My path to My Truth😵

No, I am telling you I have no right to claim reality any more than you! We are in and apart of reality, we don’t define it, there isn’t an Atheist reality and a Theist reality. We don’t get to walk around comparing belief systems, just so we can choose the one we like the best, that suits our personality, and tastes. We may pick one, we may make up our own minds, but we can totally get wrong what is real compared to what we concluded thereby missing the truth.

What is real does not change due to human perceptions. Just our grasp of it may change for the better or worse nothing more.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
No, I am telling you I have no right to claim reality any more than you! We are in and apart of reality, we don’t define it, there isn’t an Atheist reality and a Theist reality. We don’t get to walk around comparing belief systems, just so we can choose the one we like the best, that suits our personality, and tastes. We may pick one, we may make up our ow ...[text shortened]... due to human perceptions. Just our grasp of it may change for the better or worse nothing more.

Nobody "claims" reality!

However we do define by means of using our mental products the reality we perceive, and in turn we are defined as the products of our own mental products in a way that changes our knowledge and hence our views about the nature of the reality of everything we happen to perceive.

All the (strictly man-made) definitions of ours are brought up and used by us all for a single one specific reason: To ease us examine in depth, evaluate, decipher and redifine properly the nature of everything we happen to perceive by means of our senses and our rest mental activities during the interaction of our mind with the Physical World, our Inner World and the World of our Ideas.

In fact, do you not define reality and proceed accordingly when you stop in front of the traffic light when it turns red? (reality in this context is the causal field in which your perception is activated on the basis of your validated herenow knowledge that at a specific spacetime you are not allowed to keep up moving but you are strictly requested to stop moving).
Your exact, accurate and forced definition and thus knowledge as regards the specific issue "What one has to do when the traffic light turns red?" is both crucial and obligatory (simply because We subjectively have decide that it must be so, not because it is related to some kind of "Absolute Truth"😉, otherwise you are dangerous to yourself and to all the other users of the road.

Likewise, do you not define reality whenever you evaluate for specific reasons that you are under attack and must decide if you have to fight or run?
Do we not define reality at the levels of the Physical World, of our Inner World and of the World of Ideas when we use the products of the science in order to live well, and due to this process we change dramatically the environment of the whole planet and the life of all the sentient beings of the Earth, as is the case with our excessive using of transport media, weapons of mass destruction, etc., etc.??

Do you not define reality you Christians, when you preach the Good News with the single aim to change one's view so that every human being can be saved through Jesus and by Grace?
😵

Originally posted by @kellyjay
No, I am telling you I have no right to claim reality any more than you! We are in and apart of reality, we don’t define it, there isn’t an Atheist reality and a Theist reality. We don’t get to walk around comparing belief systems, just so we can choose the one we like the best, that suits our personality, and tastes. We may pick one, we may make up our ow ...[text shortened]... due to human perceptions. Just our grasp of it may change for the better or worse nothing more.

Furthermore, there really is an "Atheist" and a "Theist" reality amongst the countless realities that are projected by each human being; because the mental products of both of these views have the power to transform the way one thinks and lives. For people do live according to their beliefs. To me, the so called "sin nature" is non-existent; to you, it is existent. This crucial, huge difference between our views simply means that we live quite differently.

Of course, both of us can be right or wrong for any given issue; but, in order to state what exactly gives as regards given approaches on specific issues, this examination and the final conclusions are grounded strictly on the quality of the theories of reality from which our purely subjective mental products emerged. Whether a theory of reality is viable or not, is decided strictly on the basis of the accurate or the false evaluation of the mind.

Finally, what is considered by us "real" at any given spacetime does change due to human perceptions. So we do not claim anymore that the Sun is orbiting around the Earth and we acknowledge that this was the case in the past too, and this means that our view about this specific aspect of our perceived reality is changed (not because we have an agenda, but because we came to know better, hence adopting a different definition/ sensemaking of the reality herenow as regards this specific issue).
On the other hand, G-d is really real to you and unreal to me, and oh the horror we are both unable to prove either G-d's existence or G-d's non-existence herenow. Your Truth and Mine are in opposition, and both of them are trully true to our respectful mental mechanisms. No big deal😵

Originally posted by @kellyjay
No, I am telling you I have no right to claim reality any more than you! ...

How about, "any less than you". Just because science is about learning, that doesn't make santa real! We gotta have standards.

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Furthermore, there really is an "Atheist" and a "Theist" reality amongst the countless realities that are projected by each human being; because the mental products of both of these views have the power to transform the way one thinks and lives. For people do live according to their beliefs. To me, the so called "sin nature" is non-existent; to you, it ...[text shortened]... opposition, and both of them are trully true to our respectful mental mechanisms. No big deal😵

Your realities basically are imaginary, these so-called Atheist and Theistic views are what if not? Those who hold Theism belief actually create a God who transcends the universe? When you say an Atheist reality do they destroy God or gods by how they hold realities? Instead are those just beliefs people hold between their ears? The reality of God real or not doesn’t change due to anyone’s thoughts.

Originally posted by @apathist
How about, "any less than you". Just because science is about learning, that doesn't make santa real! We gotta have standards.

I have no idea what you are talking about, or why!

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Your realities basically are imaginary, these so-called Atheist and Theistic views are what if not? Those who hold Theism belief actually create a God who transcends the universe? When you say an Atheist reality do they destroy God or gods by how they hold realities? Instead are those just beliefs people hold between their ears? The reality of God real or not doesn’t change due to anyone’s thoughts.

So you are dead sure that, as regards the Atheist and Theistic views amongst else, “these realities are imaginary”!

This is false, Kellyjay. For the World of the Ideas, the Inner World, and the Physical World that surrounds us all, interact constantly; and, as a consequence, we human beings become the products of Our products –and we define as much as we can reality, by means of giving it shape according to our volition.

But our products are so many!
You strongly believe that the Scripture is the Word of G-d, you believe that reality is in full accordance with your religious beliefs, and you transformed yourself into a person that has nothing to do with the one you were before.
Likewise, persons whose view is different than yours, also feel, think and act in ways that define reality not only in the realm of their Inner World and their World of Ideas, but also in the realm of the Physical World, of our collective Inner World and our collective World of Ideas. This is the purely subjective mechanism we human beings are using constantly in order not only to define reality, but to give reality specific shapes according to our volition😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
So you are dead sure that, as regards the Atheist and Theistic views amongst else, “these realities are imaginary”!

This is false, Kellyjay. For the World of the Ideas, the Inner World, and the Physical World that surrounds us all, interact constantly; and, as a consequence, we human beings become the products of Our products –and we define as much ...[text shortened]... rder not only to define reality, but to give reality specific shapes according to our volition😵

The fact you are using the word “realities” instead of reality should show you, your error. I will tell you if you exchanged your use of the word “reality” with “faith” we would be in almost complete agreement, because that is really what your describing here. The different Atheist’s faith sees the universe these ways, while the various Theistic veiws see the universe these ways.

Reality doesn’t change to suit us, we have to change due to it.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
The fact you are using the word “realities” instead of reality should show you, your error. I will tell you if you exchanged your use of the word “reality” with “faith” we would be in almost complete agreement, because that is really what your describing here. The different Atheist’s faith sees the universe these ways, while the various Theistic veiws see the universe these ways.

Reality doesn’t change to suit us, we have to change due to it.

Edit: The fact you are using the word “realities” instead of reality should show you, your error.


It does not show any “error” of mine. It shows that, although you are talking about a reality which in your opinion is perceived like “we see it all as through a glass darkly”, you do not understand the spectrum and the force of the consequences.

The consequences emerge from the fact that, even according to your own opinion, every person’s mental projection about reality is just one amongst countless other mental projections of the rest persons and the rest sentient beings of our planet. It follows that the Single One Ever-Changing Reality, on which are grounded all the countless projections from the sentient beings that perceive it always partly –because their mental activities mechanism does not allow for a holistic perception of the Single One Ever-Changing Reality– is under any circumstances holistically unconceivable.

Therefore, since every sentient being perceives, evaluates and deciphers solely partly the Single One Ever-Changing Reality, we end up with as many realities as many are the sentient beings that accept them as true😵

Originally posted by @kellyjay
The fact you are using the word “realities” instead of reality should show you, your error. I will tell you if you exchanged your use of the word “reality” with “faith” we would be in almost complete agreement, because that is really what your describing here. The different Atheist’s faith sees the universe these ways, while the various Theistic veiws see the universe these ways.

Reality doesn’t change to suit us, we have to change due to it.

Edit: I will tell you if you exchanged your use of the word “reality” with “faith” we would be in almost complete agreement, because that is really what your describing here.


No.
This has nothing to do with blind beliefs evaluated and understood as “faith”, or with beliefs grounded on viable or non viable herenow theories of reality. It has to do solely with the specific way each sentient being’s bodymind is hard-wired to the Physical World that surrounds it.

When you see that Bible you hold in your hands, you define this exact piece of information from your eye as “The Bible” and you end up with specific sensemaking products according to the evaluation of Your mind. However that very same object provides a quite different piece of information and a quite different than yours sensemaking product to me, to a Hindu, to a cat, to a dog, to an ant, to a sparrow, to the dolphin that happen to look at it through the glass of the aquarium when you went there to see the dolphins. The projection of the different meanings of all these differently evaluated perceptions about the very same object is the sole truth that each single one sentient being can extract out of her perception of the Single One Ever-Changing Reality in which that specific Bible is embedded.

That being said, I argue that all these realities are equally true to the sentient beings that decipher them according to their nature.
Furthermore, I argue that the Single One Ever-Changing Reality cannot be conceived by nobody holistically, therefore nobody has a clue about it. All we can do is to comment about the reality We perceive and decipher.
😵

Originally posted by @kellyjay
The fact you are using the word “realities” instead of reality should show you, your error. I will tell you if you exchanged your use of the word “reality” with “faith” we would be in almost complete agreement, because that is really what your describing here. The different Atheist’s faith sees the universe these ways, while the various Theistic veiws see the universe these ways.

Reality doesn’t change to suit us, we have to change due to it.

Edit: Reality doesn’t change to suit us, we have to change due to it.


Not necessarily.
In fact we define and change so big time reality to suit us, that we have almost destroyed the environmental sustainability required for our survival and the survival of many other species of the planet😵

Originally posted by @black-beetle
Edit: I will tell you if you exchanged your use of the word “reality” with “faith” we would be in almost complete agreement, because that is really what your describing here.


No.
This has nothing to do with blind beliefs evaluated and understood as “faith”, or with beliefs grounded on viable or non viable herenow theories of reality. It has to do ...[text shortened]... has a clue about it. All we can do is to comment about the reality We perceive and decipher.
😵

Blind beliefs, I never claimed that.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I have no idea what you are talking about, or why!

What role should faith play?