16 Jun 13
-Removed-Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 1:26 NKJV)
The Hebrew word translated as "God" in English is pronounced "Elohim" in Hebrew. It is listed in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance as the Hebrew word number 430 which can be translated "gods" because it is the plural form of 433 pronunced "Eloah". But since this is referring to the one true God it is translated in the singular in English. The "im" suffix indicates a plural, like when added to "cherub" to get the plural "cherubim".
The Instructor
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17 Jun 13
5 edits
what is it about, 'he gave no consideration to a seizure, namely that he should be equal to God', that you fail to understand, your insistence on putting emphasis on a personal pronoun and the verb 'to be', is ludicrous.
Nope. He was "equal with God." That is why it is of note that He "emptied Himself".
Had He not been "equal with God" then there would be nothing notable about the fact that He so "emptied Himself" of this glory and humbled Himself.
There is saying - "Stop being so humble. You're not that great."
It is because He was "equal with God" that His seven steps of humility are of such amazing interest. Had he not been equal with God then He would have already been emptied of this glorious splendor.
Compared to the Almighty all other creatures are certainly less full.
In that case it would not be a great thing that He emptied Himself and became a slave. All created beings serve the Almighty in that lower position.
17 Jun 13
Many christian religions, christians, historians and bible scholars do not believe in the trinity. One has to recognize that it's not just the JW's who also understand this fact.
When one understands that it is NOT a bible based belief but understands the pagan origin of it, then they may progress with learning more of the Bibles truths.
I know a few here will never look at the postings which is really stupd to put it mild and that is their decision to remain in the darkness of satans teachings and tricks...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm
http://www.ucg.org/bible-study-aid/god-trinity/?s=2&gclid=CLjeoc786bcCFYiDQgodJ3sA-w
http://www.bibletoday.com/book/trinity.html?gclid=CIKRwZv96bcCFWbhQgodYBYArA
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080207225507AA1hQfz
http://www.truegospelofjesus.org/articles/trinity.html
17 Jun 13
I like this comment from one of the sourses I posted:
"Another disadvantage of this argument is that even if it is sound, the conclusion is undesirable. If Jesus and God are held to be (numerically) identical, and one adds that the Father is “fully divine” in this same sense, i.e. the Father is numerically identical to God, then it logically follows that Jesus just is (is numerically identical to) the Father. And yet, according to any trinitarian, some things are true of one that are not true of the other. This is why nearly all trinitarian theories decline to identify more than one of the three persons with God. On the other hand, some embrace this as a mystery —something which appears contradictory but is in fact true."
Strange reasoning by the trinity believers for sure. According to them "something false can be true just as something contradictory is in fact not a contradiction at all".
Sounds like satan talking to Eve doesn't it?
17 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. [/b]
Many christian religions, christians, historians and bible scholars do not believe in the trinity. One has to recognize that it's not just the JW's who also understand this fact.
When one understands that it is NOT a bible based belief but understands the pagan origin of it, then they may progress with learning more of the Bibles truths.
I know a fe ...[text shortened]... tion/index?qid=20080207225507AA1hQfz
http://www.truegospelofjesus.org/articles/trinity.html
(John 17:1-5 NKJV)
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
What was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was?
Sorry, I should have known not to ask you a question because you don't know nothin'.
The Instructor
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17 Jun 13
6 edits
If Jesus and God are held to be (numerically) identical,
There is no need to prove that the phrase "numerically identical" is in the Bible. I only need to read the facts, believe them and receive Christ.
"We will come to him" - "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
It is not "We will come to him to make a doctrine for him about the numerically identical something or other." It is simply that the Father and the Son as the mysterious divine "WE" will be imparted into the lover of Christ.
and one adds that the Father is “fully divine” in this same sense, i.e. the Father is numerically identical to God, then it logically follows that Jesus just is (is numerically identical to) the Father.
The Bible said that "We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him."
And the Bible says no one who does not have the Son has the divine life -
"He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11)
The divine "We" comes to make an abobe but the possessor of the "We" has not "the LIVES" [plural] but "the life".
And "the life" is the life of God from which unbelievers were alienated - "Being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God ..." (Eph. 4:18)
We receive the Son of God because we no longer want to be "alienated from the life of God". The thirst for God's life and God's Person opens our being to allow the astounding "WE" to make an abode with us and manifesting to us the life [not lives] of God of the Father and the Son.
The life of God [not lives plural] was with the Father yet handled, touched, seen with the eyes, heard with the ears of the apostles and reported by them to us (1 John 1:1-3)
" ... our hands handled, concerning the Word of life (and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testified ... to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us."
Though there is "We" in John 14:23 and "Us" in John 17:21 there is only the ONE divine life of God.
It is not that man may have a perplexing doctrine. It is that man may receive God as divine life and live the realm of God - in the living sphere of God.
And yet, according to any trinitarian, some things are true of one that are not true of the other.
We are told that "the truth is in Jesus" (Eph. 4:21) .
We are told that Jesus says He is the truth (John 14:6)
"I am the way and the truth and the life ..."
We are also told that the Spirit is "the Spirit of truth" (John 14:17)
We are also told that "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit". So Jesus the Son of the Father, who is the truth and the life, is imparted into our beings as "life giving Spirit" dispensing the life [not lives] of God into the believers.
The coming of the divine "We" (John 14:23) is the coming into us of the "life giving Spirit" which the last Adam (Jesus Christ) became.
This is why nearly all trinitarian theories decline to identify more than one of the three persons with God.
Because of the shortage of human language, the terms "Persons" can only be borrowed and not stressed overly far.
But we can simply take and believe what Scripture says that the divine "We" will make an abode with the lovers of Jesus. And that this is to receive the life of God from which we were alienated as unbelievers. And to have the Son is the have the life and to not have the Son is to not have the Father either.
"Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23)
To have the divine life of God in us as the "life giving Spirit" which Christ became is to be in "Us".
"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ..." (John 17:21)
The one life of God is dispensed into His people as the Father and Son coming as "We" to make an abode in the lovers of Christ. And God dispenses this eternal life into the Body of Christ "perfecting" them eventually into such a oneness in the divine "Us". God is mingled with man. God is built into man and man is built into God in a union in eternity.
"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they may be in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that the may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:21-23)
The operation of the Triune God is not that man may have a doctrine. It is that God and man may be mingled as a mutual abode. This requires PERFECTING. And the being "perfected into one" is the emerging of the Father - Son - Spirit God manifested in a corporate vessel forever.
Your religion knows nothing of the dispensing of God into man. You only fight for an objective God out there who is not imparted into man.
And you are polytheistic because you have God Almighty as one God and Michael the angel as another Mighty God. But the Bible has Jehovah as both the Mighty God and the Almighty God.
You know nothing about God wanting to live in us.
On the other hand, some embrace this as a mystery —something which appears contradictory but is in fact true."
Mystery is simply something hard to explain.
Mystery is not something too hard to experience and enjoy, just hard to explain. And it is the New Testament that says there is mystery in the experience of Christ - "Christ, the mystery of God." (Col. 2:2)
[1 Cor 2:7,8] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
•[Eph 3:3,4] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
•[Rom 16:25] Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
•[Col 4:3] Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
•[Eph 5:32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
•[Col 1:26,27] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
17 Jun 13
-Removed-I already responded with all I know about it. I am not a Hebrew scholar and have to take the word of those who are. Let me repeat what I said:
The Hebrew word translated as "God" in English is pronounced "Elohim" in Hebrew. It is listed in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance as the Hebrew word number 430 which can be translated "gods" because it is the plural form of 433 pronunced "Eloah". But since this is referring to the one true God it is translated in the singular in English. The "im" suffix indicates a plural, like when added to "cherub" to get the plural "cherubim".
The Instructor