28 Jun 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou are missing the point. Some things are "sinful" and some things are not. The question is not whether "all have sinned". Heterosexual sex, in and of itself, is not "sinful". The question is: is homosexual sex "sinful"?
'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.' Romans 3:23-24
28 Jun 23
@fmf saidI think Ghost is supporting your point indirectly. All have sinned. This includes
You are missing the point. Some things are "sinful" and some things are not. The question is not whether "all have sinned". Heterosexual sex, in and of itself, is not "sinful". The question is: is homosexual sex "sinful"?
Homosexuality
Fornication
Adultery.
The only sex permitted in the bible is sex between married men and women [there is no support for trans men or women in the bible]
28 Jun 23
@fmf saidAgreed he is being cautious ... well he and Suzainne are pals ... 🙂
I'm not so sure. I think his generic stuff about "sin" is intended to cover for Suzianne who is unable to state whether or not her faith tells her that homosexuality is "sinful". He hasn't answered the question either.
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28 Jun 23
@fmf saidThe OT doesn't hold its punches when it comes to homosexuality, while the NT only makes 3 or 4 references and mentions it alongside liars etc. (1 Timothy 1:9–10 for example). More telling perhaps, Jesus himself never mentions it.
I'm not so sure. I think his generic stuff about "sin" is intended to cover for Suzianne who is unable to state whether or not her faith tells her that homosexuality is "sinful". He hasn't answered the question either.
What Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another. Sin is between the individual and their maker and it is not for us to judge. - Yes, scripture, taken in its entirety, views homosexuality as sinful, but it doesn't exhort it above all other sins. (Indeed it runs parallel to fornication outside of marriage. I imagine most of us are guilty of that).
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI dont think anyone is claiming homosexuality is .... exhort[ed] it above all other sins. . But you answered the questions which Suzainne is dodging. Homosexuality is a sin like all others. Nobody is claiming to know how severe a sin it is.
The OT doesn't hold its punches when it comes to homosexuality, while the NT only makes 3 or 4 references and mentions it alongside liars etc. (1 Timothy 1:9–10 for example). More telling perhaps, Jesus himself never mentions it.
What Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another. Sin is between the individual and their ...[text shortened]... ndeed it runs parallel to fornication outside of marriage. I imagine most of us are guilty of that).
A point I have made before is that Solomon lists 7 things that God hates and sins of a sexual nature are not among them. So there is a case for homosexuality being lesser sins than lying, deceiving other, gossiping etc, which are part of the 7.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidhomosexuality as sinful
The OT doesn't hold its punches when it comes to homosexuality, while the NT only makes 3 or 4 references and mentions it alongside liars etc. (1 Timothy 1:9–10 for example). More telling perhaps, Jesus himself never mentions it.
What Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another. Sin is between the individual and their ...[text shortened]... ndeed it runs parallel to fornication outside of marriage. I imagine most of us are guilty of that).
As I thought. So, for a self-identifying Christian, they should be striving to avoid it, right?
28 Jun 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSin is between the individual and their maker and it is not for us to judge.
The OT doesn't hold its punches when it comes to homosexuality, while the NT only makes 3 or 4 references and mentions it alongside liars etc. (1 Timothy 1:9–10 for example). More telling perhaps, Jesus himself never mentions it.
What Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another. Sin is between the individual and their ...[text shortened]... ndeed it runs parallel to fornication outside of marriage. I imagine most of us are guilty of that).
I am talking about the doctrine and not about privacy or judgementalism.
28 Jun 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidscripture, taken in its entirety, views homosexuality as sinful, but it doesn't exhort it above all other sins.
The OT doesn't hold its punches when it comes to homosexuality, while the NT only makes 3 or 4 references and mentions it alongside liars etc. (1 Timothy 1:9–10 for example). More telling perhaps, Jesus himself never mentions it.
What Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another. Sin is between the individual and their ...[text shortened]... ndeed it runs parallel to fornication outside of marriage. I imagine most of us are guilty of that).
I am just talking about whether homosexuality is "sinful" in the context of Christian teaching; i am not aware of anyone here "exhorting it above all other sins".
28 Jun 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhat Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another.
The OT doesn't hold its punches when it comes to homosexuality, while the NT only makes 3 or 4 references and mentions it alongside liars etc. (1 Timothy 1:9–10 for example). More telling perhaps, Jesus himself never mentions it.
What Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another. Sin is between the individual and their ...[text shortened]... ndeed it runs parallel to fornication outside of marriage. I imagine most of us are guilty of that).
Establishing whether or not homosexual sex is a "sin" that Christians should strive to not partake in - according to the teaching that pertains to walking the Christian walk - has got nothing to do with loving one's neighbour.
28 Jun 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFrom my non-Christian point of view, adultery is morally unsound if it involves broken promises (betrayal) and deceit, whereas, I cannot see how homosexuality - in and of itself - is immoral.
Indeed it runs parallel to fornication outside of marriage. I imagine most of us are guilty of that.
28 Jun 23
@fmf saidActually I just noticed that GoDuke's statement that "all have sinned", does not come from Jesus. That statement is from Paul. Jesus never made statements about people being filthy sinners, or that none are righteous. His words were more encouraging people to be righteous rather that condemning them as sinners.
What Jesus does say is to love your neighbour and that all have sinned, in one way or another.
Establishing whether or not homosexual sex is a "sin" that Christians should strive to not partake in - according to the teaching that pertains to walking the Christian walk - has got nothing to do with loving one's neighbour.
29 Jun 23
@rajk999 saidI am also intrigued by the notion that the questions of what is "sinful" and whether a Christian must endeavour not commit "sins" is somehow, and to some degree, abrogated by the assertion that "everyone is a sinner".
Actually I just noticed that GoDuke's statement that "all have sinned", does not come from Jesus. That statement is from Paul. Jesus never made statements about people being filthy sinners, or that none are righteous. His words were more encouraging people to be righteous rather that condemning them as sinners.
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29 Jun 23
@fmf saidI said outside of marriage. I wasn't talking about adultery.
From my non-Christian point of view, adultery is morally unsound if it involves broken promises (betrayal) and deceit, whereas, I cannot see how homosexuality - in and of itself - is immoral.
Fornication refers to sexual intercourse between people not married to each other.