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Rajk999 objects and calls me Satan for interpreting Rev. 12:17 as meaning Jews who keep the commandments of God and Christians who have the testimony of Jesus.
Even if he is right that verse 17 only refers to Christians the fact that these are LEFT to undergo the events of the great tribulation shows that the ones taken were normal obedient Christians.
Would I be encouraging Christians to be lawless, backslidden, lukewarm so that they would be left out of a pre-tribulation rapture?
"I tell you in that night there will be two on one bed; the one is taken and the other will be left." (Luke 17:34)
Rajk999 in his twisted accusation is imagining that I am teaching Christians should be lawless, disobedient, and worldly so that they may be left. He is arguing that my interpretation encourages disobedience so that the Christian may not be taken in rapture but remain on earth to learn lessons under persecution.
"Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left." (v.35)
Rajk999 in his twisted accusation is angry because he thinks I encourage sloppy, non-watchful, disobedient, lawless, backslidden, unfaithful Christians to be left - not being raptured as a stronger component, a manchild.
I am encouraging Christians to overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the proclamation of their testimony standing on God's word. And I am encouraging them and myself to deny our fallen soul-life but rather follow the Lord Jesus instead.
The accuser of the brothers is active in Rajk999's false accusation EVEN if he is right about my saying Jews and Christians are indicated in Revelation 12:17.
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How about Revelation 14:12? Am I using Rev. 14:12 to encourage disobedience among Christians? No.
"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (14:12)
The obedient ENDURANCE of the saints in Christ is EACTLY the characteristic which qualifies the overcomers in the church to be raptured out of the hour of world-wide trial.
"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. I come quickly, hold fast what you have that no one take your crown." (Rev. 3:10,11).
The FIRSTFRUITS in chapter 14 are raptured because they have obeyed Christ in their daily trials to keep the word of His endurance. They are raptured out of the hour of trial because they have already LEARNED the lesson of obedience and endurance. They are seen standing on the heavenly Mount Zion in Revelation 14:1-5 as the FIRST ripened ones in God's farm of believers. They are the FIRSTFRUITS raptured to stand before the Son of Man in heaven.
Those left on earth have not had the reward of being kept out of the hour of world wide trial. They now must learn in the heat and pressure of that time to keep the word of Christ's endurance in the three and one half year great tribulation.
"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev. 14:12).
So even if Rajk999 is right that I am wrong to make these into two sections of God's "saints" - Jews and Christians, my view still does not encourage disobedience. Rather it warns that keeping the endurance of Christ before the rapture is already the crown to the brothers and sisters.
My interpretation teaches that it is better to learn the crowning endurance of obedience to Jesus before that terrible hour, ie. keeping the word of His endurance. But if not, it still has to be learned under the intense persecution time of the Antichrist.
Now I will go on to defend that the saints there must be the commandment keeping Jews and the faith obeying Christians. "[T]he obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:26) is the obedient abiding in Christ following Him in His leading. It is also keeping the word of Christ's endurance in a godless and lawless world.
For the Christians this is obeying "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" in Romans 8. That organic living law is freeing the obedient believer from "the law of sin and of death".
@sonship saidI consider you an enemy of Christ and His doctrine since you preach a doctrine of Satan. There is no concord between Christ and Satan.
[quote] Rajk999 has been very angry and abusive.
I am not angry. I just know that you are a dunce false preacher leading the gullible astray and that you will pay dearly when the time comes.
@sonship saidYou are really a very stupid evil man. Nothing is wrong with disagreeing with the interpretation of bible passages. It is however deceitful and crooked to do the following:
The accuser of the brothers is active in Rajk999's false accusation EVEN if he is right about my saying Jews and Christians are indicated in Revelation 12:17.
- To ADD to the bible wording. Adding your own words as if they are part of Gods Word.
- To rewrite the bible to suit your preferred doctrine
- To TAKE AWAY from the bible teachings. You have continued to ignore the teachings of Christ and and spoke in a derogatory fashon about good works and righteousness, leading away the gulllible to their doom.
You are one of the Devil's angels.
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Here I quoted a passage and in parenthesis added some words.
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (who were not raptured) who keep the commandments of God (Jews) and have the testimony of Jesus (Christians)." (Rev. 12:17)
Normally I would have remembered to UNBOLD those words in parenthesis to indicate that they are not a part of the text. I should have written it according to my usual practice to distinguish parenthesis from text.
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (who were not raptured) who keep the commandments of God (Jews) and have the testimony of Jesus (Christians)." (Rev. 12:17)
(Jews) and (Christians) is definitely not in the original text there.
This is usually what I do. At any rate I stand by the interpretation until someone can offer a better one. During the great tribulation the Jews who have been preserved and the Christians will be persecuted by Antichrist and will need to endure.
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Unbolded words are not a part of the original text.
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (who were not raptured) who keep the commandments of God (Jews) and have the testimony of Jesus (Christians)." (Rev. 12:17)
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@Rajk999
I did not get "caught" changing the text of the Bible.
I got caught forgetting to shift from bold to regular font.
Big deal.
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What's important is that the corporate manchild had PREPARED themselves for rapture by:
Living a life on earth utilizing the power of the blood of Christ's redemption to counter the nagging accusation of Satan. They overcame through the blood of the Lamb.
Living a life of proclaiming the facts of the promises of God as the word of their testimony. They overcame the Slanderer by the of God's word rather than believe the lies of the accuser.
Living a life of denying their soul-life inherited from the fall of adam. Rather they loved Christ more that the old life.
By this three-fold overcoming while they lived on earth they were qualified to be raptured up to God and to His throne. This rapture brings for the announcement that the kingdom of God has come.
" And the woman brought forth a son, a manchild, who was to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child [the overcomers] was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev. 12:5)
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them [the overcomers - the manchild] before our God day and night.
And they [the overcomers - the manchild] overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their [the overcomers - the manchild] testimony; and they [overcomers - manchild] loved not their [overcomers - manchild] soul-life unto death." (v.10)
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Correcting some typos:
Living a life on earth utilizing the power of the blood of Christ's redemption to counter the nagging accusation of Satan. They overcame through the blood of the Lamb.
Living a life of proclaiming the facts of the promises of God as the word of their testimony. They overcame the Slanderer by the [testifying] of God's word rather then believe the lies of the accuser.
Living a life of denying their soul-life inherited from the fall of Adam. Rather they loved Christ more [then] the old life.
By this three-fold overcoming while they lived on earth they were qualified to be raptured up to God and to His throne. This rapture brings [forth] the announcement that the kingdom of God has come.
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Why are you adding words of your choice to the words of the Bible?
I am inserting words in parenthesis or brackets (usually in a different font) to help
convey how I am teaching the interpretation of the passage. This is done to help people understand how the passages are being interpreted.
I think I made the point that in this case even if I am in error, there is no cause for alarm that looseness and disobedience is being encouraged to believers in Christ.
Do you disagree? Do you think me highlighting that in the great tribulation some devout Jews and Christians will be under persecution of the government of Antichrist ?
It is a fair criticism since I propose that it is most likely the way to understand some portions of Revelation.
@sonship saidYou are adding words to the Bible. Does your group urge you to do it in order to "teach" their ideology?
@FMFWhy are you adding words of your choice to the words of the Bible?
I am inserting words in parenthesis or brackets (usually in a different font) to help
convey how I am teaching the interpretation of the passage. This is done to help people understand how the passages are being interpreted.
I think I made the point that in this case even if I am i ...[text shortened]... criticism since I propose that it is most likely the way to understand some portions of Revelation.