Pure gray area

Originally posted by whodey
No. From my perspective, slavery is the natural state of fallen man. It is simply a byproduct of evil.

So how can you cite mankind turning away from its practice as an example of people being "sheep"?

Originally posted by FMF
I don't agree that opposition to slavery is an example of people being "sheep". I think it is an example of moral progress.

Moral progress?

That is easy for you to say since you have grown up in a society that views slavery as absurd. However, if we planted you back in the deep south in the 1800's, chances are your awnser changes.

Originally posted by whodey
Looking at human history, it would be hard to argue this point since the vast majority of men who have walked the earth have been slaves.

Seeing as a something like a fifth of all people who have ever lived are alive now (if I've got my factoid right) I don't see how your claim that 'the vast majority of men who have walked the earth have been slaves" can be true, unless you are using "slaves" in a non-standard way for the purpose of hyperbole.

Originally posted by whodey
Moral progress?

That is easy for you to say since you have grown up in a society that views slavery as absurd. However, if we planted you back in the deep south in the 1800's, chances are your awnser changes.

Yes, so from "the 1800's" to now there has been moral progress with regard to slavery.

Originally posted by FMF
So how can you cite mankind turning away from its practice as an example of people being "sheep"?

The reason slavery was put into practice in the first place was again the love of money. People needed cheap labor so that they could live their lavish lifestyles on vast plantations.

The problem for those in the South was, those in the North did not share their economic plight, so they then became a natural adversary.

Interestingly enough, Lincoln offered the South a chance to make slavery a Constitutional right if only they would have renounced seccession and come back to the Union, but they refused and war broke out. This shows Lincoln's utter disregard for the plight of slaves.

After the war, the North had won so they had no interest in ressurecting slavery since it had almost destroyed their little empire, so they outlawed it.

The opinions of the people followed suit. The law of the land eventually became the morality of those in the South, but not before.


Baaa, sheeple.

Originally posted by whodey
The reason slavery was put into practice in the first place was again the love of money. People needed cheap labor so that they could live their lavish lifestyles on vast plantations.

The problem for those in the South was, those in the North did not share their economic plight, so they then became a natural adversary.

Interestingly enough, Lincoln o ...[text shortened]... suit. The law of the land eventually became the morality of those in the South, but not before.

Mankind turning away from the practice of slavery is as an example of moral progress, clearly. I think we can agree.

Originally posted by FMF
Seeing as a something like a fifth of all people who have ever lived are alive now (if I've got my factoid right) I don't see how your claim that 'the vast majority of men who have walked the earth have been slaves" can be true, unless you are using "slaves" in a non-standard way for the purpose of hyperbole.

For example, in ancient Rome well over half of the population were slaves.

This was the norm in other ancient empire.

The modern era is a blink of the eye in comparison to ancient history. But even today, there is slavery, such as human trafficking.

Originally posted by whodey
For example, in ancient Rome well over half of the population were slaves.

Yes but compared to the massive populations in numerous countries now where there is no slavery and there are no slaves, the "half of the population" in ancient Rome does not make much of a dent. Your "the vast majority of men who have walked the earth have been slaves" is just hyperbole.

Originally posted by FMF
Mankind turning away from the practice of slavery is as an example of moral progress, clearly. I think we can agree.

I don't know of anyone who has ever wanted to be a slave FMF.

I don't view this as a recent development.

Originally posted by FMF
Yes but compared to the massive populations in numerous countries now where there is no slavery and there are no slaves, the "half of the population" in ancient Rome does not make much of a dent. Your "the vast majority of men who have walked the earth have been slaves" is just hyperbole.

I would have to look up the numbers.

So tell us FMF, how many slave vs. free have their been going back even before recorded time? 😛

Originally posted by whodey
The modern era is a blink of the eye in comparison to ancient history. But even today, there is slavery, such as human trafficking.

Of course there is human trafficking but what percentage of the world's population is trafficked as slaves. The population of the world during its ancient history phase is a kind of "a blink of the eye in comparison to" the modern world. Your claim that "the vast majority of men who have walked the earth have been slaves" is nonsense ~ and what's more ~ how does this hyperbole/nonsense affect the uncontroversial fact that the end of legal slavery around the world is an example of mortal progress? You don't need these silly exaggerations to make your opinions clear.

Originally posted by whodey
I would have to look up the numbers.

So tell us FMF, how many slave vs. free have their been going back even before recorded time? 😛

Look up the numbers by all means. At its height, the Roman empire had about 70 million people which was at that time 21% of the world's population. That's about the size of modern day Thailand which has less than 1% of the world's current population.

For example, in ancient Rome well over half of the population were slaves. This was the norm in other ancient empire.

So if ~ in the example [Rome] that you yourself cited ~ "half of the population" was slaves, and "half of the population" being slaves "was the norm", how does this extrapolate to your claim that "the vast majority" of all people who ever lived were slaves?

Originally posted by whodey
I don't know of anyone who has ever wanted to be a slave FMF.

I don't view this as a recent development.

Maybe you should make yourself clear then. I'll frame it as a question: do you think mankind turning away from the practice of slavery is as an example of moral progress?

Originally posted by FMF
Maybe you should make yourself clear then. I'll frame it as a question: do you think mankind turning away from the practice of slavery is as an example of moral progress?

Slavery is but one side of the coin. There are also wars being fought with essentially slave labor, and genocide etc.

Face it, mankind has a fallen nature. Men seek to exert power of his fellow man in a myriad of ways. During the Greek empire slaves enabled men to spend their time debating issues and voting. Today, everyone now has the right to vote but spend the majoirty of their time merely trying to survive. Sure they vote, but in large part are uninformed voters. Essentially their votes are based upon lies told to them, as the 1%'ers guide them on how to vote by a party system that does not really represent them. They merely have the illusion of someone representing them.

Is this freedom? No. Is it slavery as those same people struggle to serve the 1%? Shrug.

A better question would be, what constitues a slave? In ancient times there were Christian slaves who would have attested to being set free by the power of Jesus, even though they were still a slave.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]Look up the numbers by all means. At its height, the Roman empire had about 70 million people which was at that time 21% of the world's population. That's about the size of modern day Thailand which has less than 1% of the world's current population.

For how many centuries?

The bottom line is, we can guesstimate, but are limited in our information.

Even so, the majority of people in ancient times were slaves. Do you at least admit this?