Raise your hand if you're sure...

Originally posted by no1marauder
The God of the Bible was sure "gentlemenly" to the Midianites, the people of Jericho, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Comparing Zeus to Christ is disingenous; compare Zeus to OT Monster God and tell me who is the better God (lots of "meddling" in the OT, ain't there?). I'd say if you compare Hercules to Christ, Herc did a lot more impressive things in his 12 Labors than walking on some water.

This is where you are wrong. In the OT we have God speaking to people through other people but with Christ you have God in the flesh speaking directly to us all. Which is a better representation of the God of the Bible? Is it man speaking for God or God speaking directly to us? Granted, if you are not a Christian like yourself then you will not have this perspective, rather, you will simply see Christ as a man speaking for God just as Moses did. Therefore, from a Christian perspective the comparison stands. Who is the better God/man? Is it Christ or is it the petty gods of Greece? I think this comparison bothers you because the truth is plain to see.

The Bible seems to indicate that the true nature of God is slowly being revealed to us. We see a little revealed in the Mosaic law and much more revealed in the teachings of Christ. In fact, Christ was often seen teaching what the true intent or spirit of the law was all about.

Originally posted by whodey
This is where you are wrong. In the OT we have God speaking to people through other people but with Christ you have God in the flesh speaking directly to us all. Which is a better representation of the God of the Bible? Is it man speaking for God or God speaking directly to us? Granted, if you are not a Christian like yourself then you will not have this ...[text shortened]... In fact, Christ was often seen teaching what the true intent or spirit of the law was intended.

What are you implying? That the OT is not to be believed when it says your God was directly responsible for ordering mass murders, including of children? Try a direct answer to that question rather than your usual evasions.

I think you have the annoying habit of trying to read other people's minds. I don't think of the Greek Gods as any more petty than your pretend God. Christ as a man is no more praiseworthy than many men and probably less so than others like Gautama who encouraged people to seek self-awareness. Christ while spouting a basically humanitarian message (which you don't believe is of any importance; you've stated the manner of his death and supposed resurrection is all that counts) also insisted on a grovelling subservience to mythical Deity. That is not something a human being should emulate.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
No other religious system than Islam calls their God Allah either. So what?

So buttons!

As far as I'm concerned you don't get it.

Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]What are you implying? That the OT is not to be believed when it says your God was directly responsible for ordering mass murders, including of children? Try a direct answer to that question rather than your usual evasions.

What I am implying is the general theology of the NT which is that we see through a glass darkly. With Moses we see a little more. With Christ we see a little more. Then when we go to be with the Lord he will be revealed in full!!

I do not mean to imply that the OT is invalid. What I do mean to imply is that the problems addressed by both the OT and NT are essentially the same. That problem in question is sin and how to stop sin? With the Mosaic law we did not have the power of Christ to overcome sin in our lives. Therefore, when people fell into sin, that sin often took hold of them and contolled them. If they were allowed to continue in their sin, their sin would simply spread amonst the people. God's delimma was then to destroy the person to destroy the sin or allow them to live, thus, allowing them to continue to spread their sin which brought further problems for society at large. The object has always been to destroy the sin but spare the sinner, however, before the advent of Christ this was problematic to say the least. This is why bringing the Messiah into the world was so important.

Originally posted by whodey
What I am implying is the general theology of the NT which is that we see through a glass darkly. With Moses we see a little more. With Christ we see a little more. Then when we go to be with the Lord he will be revealed in full!!

I do not mean to imply that the OT is invalid. What I do mean to imply is that the problems addressed by both the OT and NT roblematic to say the least. This is why bringing the Messiah into the world was so important.

Yes, yes, your all-powerful God can't stop people from sinning because he can't interfere with their free will. However, he can order mass executions of peoples who are "sinners" including right down to all the sinning male infants.

We've heard this crap before. My point is it hardly makes your "God of Love" very "gentlemently" when His All-Mighty Self has the Hebrews stick a sword through a bunch of babies.

Originally posted by no1marauder

I think you have the annoying habit of trying to read other people's minds. I don't think of the Greek Gods as any more petty than your pretend God. Christ as a man is no more praiseworthy than many men and probably less so than others like Gautama who encouraged people to seek self-awareness.

Perhaps I should not assume such things. You apparently think little of Christ or his message.

Gautama may have been a "good" man as was Christ but what solutions did he offer for what ailes man? How is being more self aware beneficial? For examlpe, is a better self awareness the medicine we need in and of itself or is it the awareness that we need a physician to help us for what ailes us?

To some degree Christ would even concur, however, Christ would say that he is the physician. Are we aware that we are sinners? Do we realize that we have a problem with sin and that we need the help of Christ to overcome death, hell, and the grave?

Originally posted by no1marauder
[. Christ while spouting a basically humanitarian message (which you don't believe is of any importance; you've stated the manner of his death and supposed resurrection is all that counts) also insisted on a grovelling subservience to mythical Deity. That is not something a human being should emulate.[/b]

Now who is being annoying? You are putting words in my mouth. I never meant to donwplay the humanitarian role of Christ, rather, I was simply trying to convey that the affairs of this temperal world are of less significance than the affairs of this present world. As Christ would say, what profits a man if he gain the whole world and loose his very soul?

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps I should not assume such things. You apparently think little of Christ or his message.

Gautama may have been a "good" man as was Christ but what solutions did he offer for what ailes man? How is being more self aware beneficial? For examlpe, is a better self awareness the medicine we need in and of itself or is it the awareness that we need a ...[text shortened]... a problem with sin and that we need the help of Christ to overcome death, hell, and the grave?

We don't need Christ for anything although some of his teachings are OK though you think they are worthless. I'd give you a link to Buddhist thought and how self-awareness can overcome desire which leads to suffering, but you wouldn't read it as you are happy to remain stunningly ignorant of other philosophical systems that don't rely on having a Big Daddy in the Sky.

EDIT: On the off-chance that you have any real intellectual curiousity, try this site for a description of the Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path. http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/noble.html

Of course, that's a basic overview.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Yes, yes, your all-powerful God can't stop people from sinning because he can't interfere with their free will. However, he can order mass executions of peoples who are "sinners" including right down to all the sinning male infants.

We've heard this crap before. My point is it hardly makes your "God of Love" very "gentlemently" when His All-Mighty Self has the Hebrews stick a sword through a bunch of babies.

Who did God execute? Biblcially those killed by God were judged to be wicked men and worthy of death. So perhaps men such as Hitler should have been allowed to contnue their wicked ways?


I suppose your best arguement is to say that God should not have allowed those who were "innocet" to share in the wrath of God. However, I find this to be a complicated issue as where you see it black and white. For example, was Christ not innocect? Yet according to the Bible the wrath of God was poured out on him while on the cross. I think you will find that the "innocent" tend to suffer right along side of the "guilty". THe Bible is full of such examples.

Originally posted by whodey
Now who is being annoying? You are putting words in my mouth. I never meant to donwplay the humanitarian role of Christ, rather, I was simply trying to convey that the affairs of this temperal world are of less significance than the affairs of this present world. As Christ would say, what profits a man if he gain the whole world and loose his very soul?

Bull. You've claimed that without Christ's death and resurrection his and all our lives would be meaningless. Thus his humanitarian teachings don't matter at all according to you.

I have no idea what the sentence "the affairs of this temperal world are of less significance than the affairs of this present world". Please clarify.

Originally posted by whodey
Who did God execute? Biblcially those killed by God were judged to be wicked men and worthy of death. So perhaps men such as Hitler should have been allowed to contnue their wicked ways?


I suppose your best arguement is to say that God should not have allowed those who were "innocet" to share in the wrath of God. However, I find this to be a complicat ...[text shortened]... ent" tend to suffer right along side of the "guilty". THe Bible is full of such examples.

The entire population of Jericho, including the farm animals, was killed upon God's orders. Were they all wicked?

All the adult Midianites and the male children were killed on God's orders (the virgin girls were spared for the conquering heroes to "use"😉. Were they all wicked?

Yes the Bible is chock full of injustices. That is a good reason to reject it as the word of some All-Loving God.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Bull. You've claimed that without Christ's death and resurrection his and all our lives would be meaningless. Thus his humanitarian teachings don't matter at all according to you.

I have no idea what the sentence "the affairs of this temperal world are of less significance than the affairs of this present world". Please clarify.

Okay. Lets say that during the coarse of my day my favorite sports team wins a game. Then later in the day, I am served my favorite meal. Then at the very end of the day my son is born into the world. At the end of the day, I might say that the birth of my son made my entire day. That is not to say that the other things during my day are not appreciated or that I did not enjoy them but it is to say in comparison to my son being born it has not chance of comparison in importance to me.


Do you understand now?

Originally posted by no1marauder
The entire population of Jericho, including the farm animals, was killed upon God's orders. Were they all wicked?

All the adult Midianites and the male children were killed on God's orders (the virgin girls were spared for the conquering heroes to "use"😉. Were they all wicked?

Yes the Bible is chock full of injustices. That is a good reason to reject it as the word of some All-Loving God.

OK, so lets say that God spares the children and/or the "innocent" ones in the land of Canaan. Who sees what the future holds for such "innocent" people? Is it not God and God alone? What if these people, if allowed to live, would have prevented the formation or continuation of the nation of Israel? Crazy you say? Just ask the people of Palastine how they feel about the Israelites who drove them off their land and see how well they get along. On the present path both parties are on, both sides are bound and determained to prevail and destroy the other yet they are fighting over their grandfathers sins. Years upon countless years of continued violence and death have occured with no end in sight. That is unless they destroy themselves altogether. So the question must be asked, if God had spared the "innocent" ones and only killed the "wicked" ones, would it have in the long run created greater death and violence via future generations? Would it have completly derailed his plan for salvation for all of mankind through Christ altogether?

Originally posted by whodey
Who did God execute? Biblcially those killed by God were judged to be wicked men and worthy of death. So perhaps men such as Hitler should have been allowed to contnue their wicked ways?


I suppose your best arguement is to say that God should not have allowed those who were "innocet" to share in the wrath of God. However, I find this to be a complicat ...[text shortened]... ent" tend to suffer right along side of the "guilty". THe Bible is full of such examples.

I imagine that if Hitler had won, he'd be hailed as a savior. I would also expect that whatever spiritual truth percolated out of the Third Reich's mysticism would have positioned Hitler as a Godlike figure (ala Les Noth Korean God Leader).

History's a real bitch to the losers of various wars. Funny how the victors always have a good PR group.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
I imagine that if Hitler had won, he'd be hailed as a savior. I would also expect that whatever spiritual truth percolated out of the Third Reich's mysticism would have positioned Hitler as a Godlike figure (ala Les Noth Korean God Leader).

History's a real bitch to the losers of various wars. Funny how the victors always have a good PR group.

Yes and no. For example, Stalin was a victor. Although it is true that at first he was seen by many to be a godlike figure because of his success, he was later seen for what he was. i think you will find that truth has a way of finding you out in the end.