Raise your hand if you're sure...

Originally posted by no1marauder
Mankind in its arrogance decided it was the center of creation and then part of mankind created a SuperDuper God who made an entire, vast universe for no other purpose that to put Man in it. What hubris!

My point remains: why would an Almighty, All-Powerful God give the tiniest crap about what men think? Why would He need to be loved by crea ...[text shortened]... erior to him in every way? Your God sounds as needy as a 13 year old girl with a weight problem.

Why indeed! Well lets consider your super duper God theory. He can do anything correct? This even includes willfully surrendering part of his control over creation via our free will correct? Then when you think about this scenerio, what is the one focus he has in the universe? Is it cosmic activities that he has direct control over etc, etc., or would his interest be directed over what he has chosen not to have control over which is our free will? For example, do you focus the most on things that you control directly the most and probably don't even think about or do you focus the most on the things that you feel as though you have no control over? Christ gave the analogy of the good shepherd who had a flock of sheep but lost just one. The good shepherd then forsook his entire flock that he owned and sought the one lost sheep.

If love means as much to God as it does us, which is likely because that is how we are wired, then love is the sole purpose of creation. The quesiton then becomes, what is God loving in creation or what is the focus of his love in his creation? Would it not have to be beings who have free will and who are able to embrace him or reject him if they so desire?

To put it another way, if love is what God is all about, those things he has direct control over are not really objects of love, rather, they would be merely extensions of himself loving himself back. What good is that? If its so great then program a computer to tell you every day that it loves you. Therefore, it stands to reason that God values the most what he does not have direct control over and what he has willingly set free in the hopes of it returning to him one day.

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
Intelligent quotes by no1marauder that elevates our discussion:

"Your type of Christianity is nuts."

"We've heard this crap before."

Names for God:

"Big Daddy in the Sky"

"OT Monster God"

"pretend God"

Fundamentalist Christian: "fundie"

Thanks for elevating the discussion, no1marauder. It really helps those who disagree with you to respect your point of view.

Get lost. At least I put something into the discussion; all you seem to do is whine about how others make their points while never raising any substantive points of your own.

Originally posted by whodey
Why indeed! Well lets consider your super duper God theory. He can do anything correct? This even includes willfully surrendering part of his control over creation via our free will correct? Then when you think about this scenerio, what is the one focus he has in the universe? Is it cosmic activities that he has direct control over etc, etc., or would hi ...[text shortened]... ct control over and what he has willingly set free in the hopes of it returning to him one day.

It doesn't make any sense at all and I think you know it. Your God is supposed to exist "outside of time", what could it possibly mean to Him to have infinitely inferior creatures "return to him one day"?? And if he was sooooooooooooooo worried about these creatures "returning to him one day", why limit their ability to do so to such a tiny space of time that is a human lifetime? If God "loved" men, what is he doing destroying all those wicked ones in the OT? Why destroy anybody ever if "love is the sole purpose of creation"????

If you ever bothered to think about it logically rather than spew out the dogma you have been spoon fed probably since childhood, you'd realize that your theology is contradictory and nonsensical.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It doesn't make any sense at all and I think you know it. Your God is supposed to exist "outside of time", what could it possibly mean to Him to have infinitely inferior creatures "return to him one day"?? And if he was sooooooooooooooo worried about these creatures "returning to him one day", why limit their ability to do so to such a tiny space of time since childhood, you'd realize that your theology is contradictory and nonsensical.

The interactions between the spiritual realm and that of the materical realm are debatable. Especially since we do not have a point of reference in understanding the spiritual realm. After all, all we have ever known is this current deminsion. However, it is apparent to me that perhaps God is omnipresent in both deminsions.


As far as focusing on a tiny space of time or a tiny speck in the universe, what does size have to do with anything? Perhaps it is not grandiose enough for you? Then again, maybe our tiny space in the universe as a whole and our tiny occupation of time within that universe is designed to humble us in relation to our Maker? Ever think about that?

As far as God destroying "wicked" men, again I would ask is it sometimes necessary? Is mankind sometimes better off without such threats to peace and security in the world without such men? For me it is akin to amputating a dying limb. If you do not decide to do so, the entire body dies. However, with the advent of Christ and his sacrifice, it appears God has found a better way to combat such sin in the world. Now there is hope for those who beforehand would have been deemed hopeless or the desperatly wicked. Now perhaps the dead limb can be revived!!

Originally posted by whodey
The interactions between the spiritual realm and that of the materical realm are debatable. Especially since we do not have a point of reference in understanding the spiritual realm. After all, all we have ever known is this current deminsion. However, it is apparent to me that perhaps God is omnipresent in both deminsions.


As far as focusing on a tin ave been deemed hopeless or the desperatly wicked. Now perhaps the dead limb can be revived!!

I suggest you re-read my post and respond to what I wrote this time. And I really suggest that you actually read all the posts you have written in this thread; perhaps you will realize that your "reasoning" is contradictory. I doubt that you will; you seem to be intellectually stunted and trapped by dogma. But perhaps some day you will "empty your cup" and think about these matters free of such preconceptions.

BTW, why would the God who loves us soooooooooooo much want to "humble" us? And I ask one more time, why if he wants us to "return to him", does he limit our ability to do so to a single human lifetime? What's the rush?

And why did Jesus fear death?

Originally posted by no1marauder
From Bokonon:

Tiger got to hunt,
Bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep,
Bird got to land,
Man got to tell himself he understand.

EDIT: Luke 22:42 is hardly something a Zen Master would say.

Oh, the Bokonon! So much wisdom!

Originally posted by no1marauder

BTW, why would the God who loves us soooooooooooo much want to "humble" us? And I ask one more time, why if he wants us to "return to him", does he limit our ability to do so to a single human lifetime? What's the rush?

And why did Jesus fear death?[/b]

I will answer your question by asking a question first. Which is the better virture, pride or humility? Why is pride considered a sin Biblically?

Edit: As far as Christ being afraid to die I would argue that the prospect of being seperated from the Father was the greatest source of anguish rather than the physical aspect of his sufferings.

Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]I suggest you re-read my post and respond to what I wrote this time. And I really suggest that you actually read all the posts you have written in this thread; perhaps you will realize that your "reasoning" is contradictory.

I think you will find that most complex issues/people taken at face value appear contradictory.

Originally posted by whodey
I will answer your question by asking a question first. Which is the better virture, pride or humility? Why is pride considered a sin Biblically?

Edit: As far as Christ being afraid to die I would argue that the prospect of being seperated from the Father was the greatest source of anguish rather than the physical aspect of his sufferings.

One minute you're crowing about Man being the ultimate goal of Creation who Super Duper God made just so he'd have somebody to hang out with and now you're complaining about the sin of pride?? Contradictory.

And I ask one more time, why if he wants us to "return to him", does he limit our ability to do so to a single human lifetime? What's the rush?

How could Jesus be "separated" from the Father??? You can argue whatever you want I suppose, but the passage in Luke makes clear he feared death and an angel had to be sent to "strengthen" him! What sense does that make IF he was 100% God and sent to Earth to die on the Cross AND be resurrected? Did he forget?

Originally posted by whodey
I think you will find that most complex issues/people taken at face value appear contradictory.

I think you are wrong; people find beliefs like yours that are contradictory contradictory.

Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]One minute you're crowing about Man being the ultimate goal of Creation who Super Duper God made just so he'd have somebody to hang out with and now you're complaining about the sin of pride?? Contradictory.

There is a HUGE difference in man thinking that he is of such importance that God "needs" him and thinking that man of such importance because God "desires" him. Pride is simply thinking more of yourself than you actually are. In effect, it is a distortion of reality or a lie, if you will.

For example, if I have a child I would say that I desire him or her and not that I "need" them to live.

If memory serves, pride was Lucifers fall from grace or the original sin.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I think you are wrong; people find beliefs like yours that are contradictory contradictory.

Wait!! Is'nt saying contradictory contradictory.....well, contradictory?

Originally posted by no1marauder
How could Jesus be "separated" from the Father??? You can argue whatever you want I suppose, but the passage in Luke makes clear he feared death and an angel had to be sent to "strengthen" him! What sense does that make IF he was 100% God and sent to Earth to die on the Cross AND be resurrected? Did he forget?[/b]

How was he seperated from the Father? Biblically, Christ became sin for us on the cross, thus taking on our sins himself. Then when this occured there was a seperation between the Son and the Father.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Humanity has been around for a million+ years (slighty more than the 6000 the bible implies). Just to be fair, let's say it's 50,000 years of humanity plodding around the Earth. As a conservative estimate, let's say that humanity has devloped at least 15,000 Gods over our time on Earth. With this comes elaborate rituals, sacrifices, good, evil, dem ...[text shortened]... f humanities creative psyche? Why is Christianity any more valid than Hinduism for example?

sorry, but is your avatar what i think it is?

Originally posted by no1marauder
I think you are wrong; people find beliefs like yours that are contradictory contradictory.

Speaking of contradictions, here are a few. I think we can all find truth within certain contradictions.


The richest are the poorest.

Arid intellectualism

We all crave love but often insist on hating.

I rebel when I do good.

Revolutionaries become dictators.

Liberty is hard work.

All men slowly die as they long for life.

The most important activities in life are patronized.

The modern man is new.

Righteousness is far away, but it is still my state.

(Here are a few Christ's teachings that seem contradictory.)

To lead you must first serve.

He that is first will be last and he that is last will be first.

He that seeks to save his life will loose it and he that forsakes his life will find it.

Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you and despitefully use you.

He that humbles himself will be exalted and he that exalts himself will be abased.