09 Nov 10
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Originally posted by FabianFnaswell well, why doesn't that surprise me, let me save both you and i the trouble, you don't think they are high, i do think they are high, you disagree, i disagree with your interpretation, life goes on, you have saved time and i have saved time on a futile discussion and i am happier for it, you really should thank me for the practicality of such an approach.
"our high moral standards"?
I would like to dispute this.
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNo, i don't believe everything i read on the net. I only came across one of these websites when i was looking for some information on JW's and blood transfusions. Also, maybe you shouldn't jump to the same conclusion about everybody who wishes to leave your organisation. I dare you to read some of their stories
yeah yeah, usual tabloid nonsense by disgruntled ex witnesses who could not keep our high moral standards, believe everything you read on the net dude? here is Galvo, brought up a witnesses telling you that he was not coerced or forced, who are we to believe, those with a grudge or those that are happy in what they do? there is an ex witness where ...[text shortened]... mean just pure filth about us, doesn't tell you why he was removed, nor would you want to know!
Also, what was going on with The Watchtower and the UN?
09 Nov 10
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Originally posted by Proper Knobi have read them in the past, please forgive me if i do not wish to do so again for they tend to discourage rather than encourage. As for the watchtower it is a magazine dear Noobster, publicly circulated, the United Nations a government agency, if you are referring to our use of photographs and archives from the library, we were at liberty as an NGO to do so, why you persist on feeding your mind on these things i do not know, as soon as any discrepancy is brought to our attention, we deal with it!
No, i don't believe everything i read on the net. I only came across one of these websites when i was looking for some information on JW's and blood transfusions. Also, maybe you shouldn't jump to the same conclusion about everybody who wishes to leave your organisation. I dare you to read some of their stories
Also, what was going on with The Watchtower and the UN?
09 Nov 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhen you say you have high morals, what do you mean? Higher than others? That you are better than others? That you have defined moral in a better way than others? And live according to them?
well well, why doesn't that surprise me, let me save both you and i the trouble, you don't think they are high, i do think they are high, you disagree, i disagree with your interpretation, life goes on, you have saved time and i have saved time on a futile discussion and i am happier for it, you really should thank me for the practicality of such an approach.
Tell me one group that say "We have lower moral than others and we're proud of it." I don't think you can find anyone who says that. But bragging that the morals of JW is higher than others is somewhat provocative.
If you think that your morals are higher than others, I can point out for you some stories that shows that you are wrong. You are not supermorals. Some of you do low-moral things. Very low-moral things. And this is accepted by your group with the elders acceptance. You want me to point out what I mean?
Of course I believe that individuals have high morals, even groups within JW has hig morals, but JW as a whole has not. There are poisoned eggs in your basket. What bothers me is that noone does anything about it, it is accepted behaviour, even protected behaviour. The story leaks out to the pres, and it doesn' look good.
So when you say you have high morals, then I have to object. Because it is simply not true. You are not better (perhaps not worse) than other groups in the society.
If you don't agree with this, then tell me so, and I will give links to stories that says otherwise.
With this I don't say that you, personally have bad moral. You might have good moral, I don't know you enough for saying this, but it's not about you as an individual member of JW.
09 Nov 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieI was looking through the forum on one of those websites last night, one thread was titled 'what was your defining moment' for leaving the JW's, and a lot of people came mentioning something about the UN.
i have read them in the past, please forgive me if i do not wish to do so again for they tend to discourage rather than encourage. As for the watchtower it is a magazine dear Noobster, publicly circulated, the United Nations a government agency, if you are referring to our use of photographs and archives from the library, we were at liberty as an N ...[text shortened]... e things i do not know, as soon as any discrepancy is brought to our attention, we deal with it!
I didn't know that you guys saw the UN as somekind of 'idolatrous worship' (that's words from one of your publications) and the United Nations, is likened to that of “a scarlet-colored wild beast”. And low and behold you were an Associate member of the United Nations Department of Public Information, up until 2001.
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasto state that one has, 'high morals', is a relative statement, relative to 'low', moral standards, it is not a comparison of people, but of standards and practices. we remove annually 40,000 persons for failing to adhere to our standards of morality, your assertion that we do nothing about it is quite erroneous!
When you say you have high morals, what do you mean? Higher than others? That you are better than others? That you have defined moral in a better way than others? And live according to them?
Tell me one group that say "We have lower moral than others and we're proud of it." I don't think you can find anyone who says that. But bragging that the morals o ...[text shortened]... know you enough for saying this, but it's not about you as an individual member of JW.
09 Nov 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo you want to see the links to stories that says otherwise?
to state that one has, 'high morals', is a relative statement, relative to 'low', moral standards, it is not a comparison of people, but of standards and practices. we remove annually 40,000 persons for failing to adhere to our standards of morality, your assertion that we do nothing about it is quite erroneous!
This can be taken as insults, so I hesitate to do that. But there are plenty of these stories that says that highly un-morals things are going on on a dayly basis.
Please, just give me persission to do that and I do that in a jiffie.
Or just say that JW does not have higher morals than others, and we agree.
09 Nov 10
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for Noobster
yes the case is well documented, as i stated, as a non government organisation we were at liberty to use the services that the UN libraries and archives department provided, mostly photographs for our publication, there was an article published in the telegraph? cannot remember which highlighted the perceived inconsistency of our stance (we hold that the UN and all political agencies are a bastardisation, Gods Kingdom being the reality), we then withdrew our use of the facilities, not because it was inconsistent, but because it may have been used as an accusation against us that our beliefs are different from our practices. Why anyone should use it as a pretext for saying, oh those bad ol witnesses is just a nonsense, for as you and i know, anything may be used as a pretext for all types of behaviour which ones deems restrictive . . what's that sound, a kiss in outside the kingdom hall, urggg 😛
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasplease spare me, i have read them before, just more disgruntled people whinging about this thing or that thing, indeed i have consistently give the figures for say child abuse within our organisation and the comparison with other religious bodies and the general populace as a whole, you really don't stand a chance in that regard Fabian. I will not read nor follow the links, i have been a witness myself for fifteen years, you have never been, all you have is second hand experiences from persons you have never met, indeed, can a man who is warm understand a man who is freezing- Solzhenitsyn,
So you want to see the links to stories that says otherwise?
This can be taken as insults, so I hesitate to do that. But there are plenty of these stories that says that highly un-morals things are going on on a dayly basis.
Please, just give me persission to do that and I do that in a jiffie.
Or just say that JW are does not have higher morals than others, and we agree.
all you have to go by Fabian is other persons whom you have never met telling you what its like to be warm, i am disappointed to say the least.
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieCool, i was only after clarification.
for Noobster
yes the case is well documented, as i stated, as a non government organisation we were at liberty to use the services that the UN libraries and archives department provided, mostly photographs for our publication, there was an article published in the telegraph? cannot remember which highlighted the perceived inconsistency of our stan ...[text shortened]... hich ones deems restrictive . . what's that sound, a kiss in outside the kingdom hall, urggg 😛
As for whether it was inconsistent or not, i think we can make our own minds up on that one.
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by Proper KnobLol, yes yes, i am sure persons in a republican held government still get to use the library as democrats without compromising their beliefs, but its somehow different for us, our hoops are smaller, set on fire and all safety apparatus dismantled! its only a matter of time before we are thrown to the lions!
Cool, i was only after clarification.
As for whether it was inconsistent or not, i think we can make our own minds up on that one.
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo you admit that there are stories in plenty? Thus JW has no higher morals than other organizations.
please spare me, i have read them before, just more disgruntled people whinging about this thing or that thing, indeed i have consistently give the figures for say child abuse within our organisation and the comparison with other religious bodies and the general populace as a whole, you really don't stand a chance in that regard Fabian. I will not r ...[text shortened]... om you have never met telling you what its like to be warm, i am disappointed to say the least.
If so, I'm satisfied and will not get any further in the subject.
09 Nov 10
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Originally posted by FabianFnasyes, there are hundreds, thousands of web sites dedicated to telling people how horrible we are.
So you admit that there are stories in plenty? Thus JW has no higher morals than other organizations.
If so, I'm satisfied and will not get any further in the subject.
You are i think missing the point, we are human beings, we make mistakes, but our standards of morality are high, that is why if you are in a position of authority and you fail to live up to those standards you will be removed from your position, if you consistently and deliberately break standards of morality you will be removed from the organisation altogether, please you may like to site any other religious organisation which adheres to standards of morality, if i fornicate, shall i be removed from the church of Sweden? perhaps if i steal i shall be removed? what if i commit adultery? what indeed would it take for me to be removed through an immoral act? if you cannot answer then we must conclude that yes, they bad ol witnesses do have higher moral standards than the church of Sweden.
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLeave the church of Sweden outside this. I have never said, nor i will never say, that the church of Sweden has higher moral than anyone else. If I would say that the church of Sweden indeed was of higher moral than anyone else, then I would make the same mistake you do when you say that JW, in general and per individual, are of higher moral than everyone else. I don't. So don't draw the attention from the matter at hand.
yes, there are hundreds, thousands of web sites dedicated to telling people how horrible we are.
You are i think missing the point, we are human beings, we make mistakes, but our standards of morality are high, that is why if you are in a position of authority and you fail to live up to those standards you will be removed from your position, if ...[text shortened]... nclude that yes, they bad ol witnesses do have higher moral standards than the church of Sweden.
You in JW are human beings, doing the same mistakes as anybody else. Right. If anyone do something wrong, he is removed, right? But it takes two eyewitnesses to conferm the allegations to an elder abusing a child. Not one, but two! If only one is found, he is excused, and can go on, if he is careful enough.
There have been numerous elders that have been removed from his post in the church. Removed to another church. Where he can continue with new poor children.
Tell me, that I am wrong in this. Tell me that there are currently noone in the church of JW who is satisfying his lust with small children, boys or girls. If you say yes, then I can admit that, if it is true, you are of a high moral, even if I doubt it.
Again, this is not meant as an instult towards you, robbie. You are of the highest moral, exactly as I am.
09 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI like to think you hold your organistation in higher esteem than mere politicians. You are (allegedly) Gods people are you not?
Lol, yes yes, i am sure persons in a republican held government still get to use the library as democrats without compromising their beliefs, but its somehow different for us, our hoops are smaller, set on fire and all safety apparatus dismantled! its only a matter of time before we are thrown to the lions!