Religions make God seem so small.

Originally posted by Mexico
Science has no blinders to spirituality.... But it is built on empirical fact and evidence therefore doesn't have room for gods within its teachings.

Also religion throughout history has attacked, suppressed and generally been set completely against science......

It is the place of religion to explain that which science cannot because religion needs no ...[text shortened]... ledged by religious people then there is little if any issues between religion and science.....

I rest my case.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I rest my case.
Kelly

Just saying you rest your case doesn't actually mean you've won the debate.... Or made any valid points....

Any response or are you just going to stop posting?

Originally posted by josephw
"No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."

Nobody ever says that! Carl Sagan dreamed it up on his own to make Christians look stupid. It's a completely moronic thing to say.

Obviously that is not literal. They say, 'this is not my god, he is this!' This restricts the concept of God and keeps him small.

Originally posted by josephw
No, it just needs you.

What does that mean? That is worse than saying 'your mom is small and stupid.'

Originally posted by Mexico
Just saying you rest your case doesn't actually mean you've won the debate.... Or made any valid points....

Any response or are you just going to stop posting?

Science is not some being that teaches mankind from on high, it is
our methods that we deploy as we search out knowledge and truth.
You can just as easily say 'men build truth on empirical fact and
evidence..." You don't get to put God in a box therefore you have
no room for Him, He doesn't fit the model.

You use a broad brush with religion too, claiming that religion has
throughtout history attacked and suppressed poor science, the truth
is people have been doing that to people in an out of religion and
science as well. It goes both ways, people with an anti religion mind
set also attack those that disagree with them too, it is going on
today. Bottom line you want to make up a good vs evil, an us vs
them and paint one side as the bad guy and the other good. You
should look a little deeper, man strives to control man and he will
use whatever works to aquire power, and deploy it. Religion and
science are just tools in the hands of people not the enemy of any.

I have no idea what you think you should see when it comes to
God and evidence, I am not going to bother asking you because
I doubt I'll get an answer much like my other questions to you
that were never answered.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
.... You don't get to put God in a box therefore you have
no room for Him, He doesn't fit the model.

You use a broad brush with religion too, claiming that religion has
throughtout history attacked and suppressed poor science, the truth
is people have been doing that to people in an out of religion and
science as well.....

Religion, almost by definition is an attack on science. Any belief in the supernatural is in effect a statement that science does not and cannot work ie that we cannot reliably investigate our environment via scientific methods.
Science works on the principle (assumption?) that the universe operates via certain rules. Religion, by invoking the supernatural category, essentially claims that those rules are merely an illusion.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Science is not some being that teaches mankind from on high, it is
our methods that we deploy as we search out knowledge and truth.
You can just as easily say 'men build truth on empirical fact and
evidence..." You don't get to put God in a box therefore you have
no room for Him, He doesn't fit the model.

You use a broad brush with religion too, clai ...[text shortened]... bt I'll get an answer much like my other questions to you
that were never answered.
Kelly

I'm not putting it in black and white here, you completely missed my point. Science operates within a set of defined rules, therefore God doesn't have a place within in the realms of science because God breaks all those rules. And to allow him be part of science is to make all those rules irrelevant.

However god will always have a place in our world for a few reasons.
1. Science will never explain everything, thus there will always be the unexplained, which leaves room for the Super Natural.
2. The point "but what caused that" will always be a viable position no matter how far back our origins get analyzed.
3. People will always say "God is omnipotent, therefore created the world as we see it today" including all the evidence, and rules that we see as governing the universe. I.e. what twhitehead says.... these rules are an illusion nothing more.

However as far as I can see organized religions, in particular those that are inflexible and fundamentalist (read fanatical), such as your own I believe?. Are a tool for the weak to control the strong, and with the messages taken to bizarre extremes I believe that these religions can be used for people to make otherwise normal people believe the ridiculous. I don't mind if you believe in a 6 day creation, and that you believe a lot of other material which when taken literally, rather than as fable and proverb, effectively makes no sense whatsoever when viewed from a scientific standpoint. But you have to realize that everything you believe is unscientific, and more importantly unprovable.

Originally posted by Mexico
I'm not putting it in black and white here, you completely missed my point. Science operates within a set of defined rules, therefore God doesn't have a place within in the realms of science because God breaks all those rules. And to allow him be part of science is to make all those rules irrelevant.

However god will always have a place in our world for a ...[text shortened]... to realize that everything you believe is unscientific, and more importantly unprovable.

Now I disagree...
Science operates within a set of defined rules, therefore God doesn't have a place within in the realms of science because God breaks all those rules.
God can be compatible with science. Science simply doesn't include God because nothing in the world suggests there's a God out there. Maybe you wanted to say "christian's god"?
As for me, gods don't disturb me... I only exclude them because of Occam's reasoning.

Originally posted by serigado
Now I disagree...
[b]Science operates within a set of defined rules, therefore God doesn't have a place within in the realms of science because God breaks all those rules.
God can be compatible with science. Science simply doesn't include God because nothing in the world suggests there's a God out there. Maybe you wanted to say "christian's god"?
As for me, gods don't disturb me... I only exclude them because of Occam's reasoning.[/b]

Granted, but thats pretty much the point I was trying to make, god cannot be proven or disproven.
Therefore there's little if any point in discussing him/her/it in the realms of science. Since science deals with empirical data, evidence and provable theories.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Religion, almost by definition is an attack on science. Any belief in the supernatural is in effect a statement that science does not and cannot work ie that we cannot reliably investigate our environment via scientific methods.
Science works on the principle (assumption?) that the universe operates via certain rules. Religion, by invoking the supernatural category, essentially claims that those rules are merely an illusion.

"Science has no blinders to spirituality.... But it is built on empirical fact and evidence therefore doesn't have room for gods within its teachings."

I guess you do believe that science has blinders on when it comes to
religion? I'd say you sound like you even go a step beyond blinders,
you feel a threat when it comes to the spiritual?
Kelly

Originally posted by Mexico
I'm not putting it in black and white here, you completely missed my point. Science operates within a set of defined rules, therefore God doesn't have a place within in the realms of science because God breaks all those rules. And to allow him be part of science is to make all those rules irrelevant.

However god will always have a place in our world for a to realize that everything you believe is unscientific, and more importantly unprovable.

You are still arguing that science doesn't have blinders when it comes
to God? It sounds like you are agreeing with me more than
disagreeing with me on that point.

With respect to organized religions, that is just like saying man made
organizations in my opinion. Tools are used by people inside and
outside of religion, people use organizations all the time, it does not
mean much. If you limit religion to man and man's beliefs and do not
allow for God, I'd agree with you, it is all just bunk; however, if God
is real than science is lacking in the most important area in man's
life and to trust it completely for all truth will cause you to miss God
and that will be that.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are still arguing that science doesn't have blinders when it comes
to God? It sounds like you are agreeing with me more than
disagreeing with me on that point.

With respect to organized religions, that is just like saying man made
organizations in my opinion. Tools are used by people inside and
outside of religion, people use organizations all th ...[text shortened]... trust it completely for all truth will cause you to miss God
and that will be that.
Kelly

If god is omnipotent, then all religions are man made.... Otherwise there would be only one religion.... Or at least there would be only the one core religion with it's splinter groups..... Why is it that if your bible is true, there are still people who've never encountered your god or his messangers?, why is it that different communities have different gods? Why is it that the further from the cradle of Christianity one goes the wider the gaps between the religious beliefs come?

Is it because the organization behind all religion is a man made artifact of control..........

Originally posted by KellyJay
I guess you do believe that science has blinders on when it comes to
religion?

Yes, I agree with that. If the supernatural category exists, then Science is doomed to fail. Its very principles are fundamentally flawed.

I'd say you sound like you even go a step beyond blinders,
you feel a threat when it comes to the spiritual?
Kelly
No, I do not feel a threat because I do not have even the slightest concern that the supernatural category might exist.
I think it was vistesd who claims that the Supernatural Category is incoherent (someone please correct me if I am attributing that to the wrong person). In think I fully agree with him.

I think that religious people face a fundamental dilemma as follows:
1. They believe that they can know something about the supernatural.
2. They believe so because they believe there is 'evidence' for it. ie there is a pattern which indicates the action of certain rules.
3. 2 above violates the definition of 'supernatural' ie a rule violating system.
4. Hence a believer really doesn't know whether or not God or whoever he thinks he is communicating with really is telling the truth, lying to them or even exists.
5. Hence the frequent statement by believers that they believe something not because it is necessarily factual but because they want it to be factual. eg "If I am wrong, I don't want to be right" or "I cant believe that God would do so and so".

Originally posted by Rajk999
Are there any Christians who believe that the creation took place in 6 consecutive 24 hr periods?
Do any think that its impossible for intelligent life to exist elsewhere in the universe?

Yes and Yes? Then Carl Sagan was right.

Rajk , You sound so normal and intelligent here. I would agree with you , fundie christians sometimes can't see past their own noses. How come you sound so rabid and unintelligent on the Israel thread then? I can't make out if you are a rabid fundie or a sound christian with some quirky thoughts on Israel.

Originally posted by Mexico
If god is omnipotent, then all religions are man made.... Otherwise there would be only one religion.... Or at least there would be only the one core religion with it's splinter groups..... Why is it that if your bible is true, there are still people who've never encountered your god or his messangers?, why is it that different communities have different gods ...[text shortened]... Is it because the organization behind all religion is a man made artifact of control..........

I believe there is a fracture with God and man (sin) and all of man's
religions are man made. That does not stop God from being real and
having a relationship with those that come to him, and even there that
does not stop those that come to him from being wrong about this or
that. I think people avoid God, they like what they like, and He does
not deal with that which is false, evil, selfish, arrogant, and so on. We
easily put things before God all the time, or we put God in a box with
respect to our thinking about Him, that is not a fault with God, but
with us. Which is why I think those people that turn toward God in
great moments of stress in their lives can actually encounter God,
because they are as real as it gets sometimes with Him and He
responds to that, not the half baked, I’ll try and see if I like it sort
of stuff some do.

People use control, relgion, education, power, and every manner of
thing to get a head in this world. That is a people issue, not a matter
of control, religion, education, power, or avery manner of thing with
man. We tend to blame the tool, and not the people who use it, we
find fault everywhere but with us.
Kelly