- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
07 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RBHILLDo you really think that as we abide in Christ moment by moment, the commands of the Spirit of Christ can be numbered ?
Common sense one cannot follow Christ's commands with not knowing what they are. 613 Old Testament commands and 1,050 New Testament commands.
I don't think the gentle regulating of the Dove of the Spirit of Jesus within the Christian can possibly be reduced to a discrete number of clearly delineated commands.
Actually, in learning to walk abiding in Christ we are more aware of when we are not going His way often, then when we are. This is like your body feeling quite normal usually. But the sign of a ache or a pain signals that something is off.
I think as we learn, by practice, to go along with the indwelling Spirit of Christ, while abeying we feel life and peace. We feel quite normal. But when we step away to go our own way, we then feel the loss of life and peace.
Romans 8:6 - "The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace."
This agree with Jesus saying that His yoke was easy and His burden was light and we would find rest unto our souls in following Him.
"Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt. 11:28-30)
The indwelling Comforter comforts as we go along with Jesus Christ. The indwelling Spirit of life in Christ Jesus comforts us as we take the meek way of abiding in Jesus - going along with His movements within.
07 Oct 14
Originally posted by RBHILLThe Bible does not speak kindly of people like yourself, neither does society in general. You will find a whole load of demeaning sayings and comments about the lazy and slothful and those who find all kinds of reasons why something cannot be done.
Common sense one cannot follow Christ's commands with not knowing what they are. 613 Old Testament commands and 1,050 New Testament commands.
Pro 22:13 The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets.
07 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonship[b] If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
How long will the Holy Spirit be given to the disciples of Jesus ?
Is this temporarily or "for ever" ?
Does He mean He will loan the Holy Spirit to the disciples on a worth ...[text shortened]... only if you intend to keep His commandments, otherwise His abiding with you will be temporary ?[/b]I think John chapters 14 & 15 has the answer to your questions. I know you would like to believe in this OSAS business but if you read the whole chapter [and other parts of Acts for eg] it is clear that the state/conduct of the early church was very much in line with the teachings of Christ. They lived charitably, they shared their wealth, they lived simply without excessive worldly goods, and I would wager they tried to follow Christ commandments. In short they pleased Christ and Christ or the Holy Spirit or Comforter was with them.
I cannot answer all your questions as only Christ can know who, for how long etc followers and disciples will be given the Holy Spirit or have Christ with them. But it as been pointed out to you many times the Bible is clear that even those with HS gifts etc can and do fall away and lose their prospect of eternal life. I know you dont accept that but its clearly stated by several Apostles and by Christ in different ways. They cannot all be mistaken.
In John 14 & 15, Christ says clearly that He will make his abode with those who follow his commandments. The he says it the other way .. those who DO NOT ABIDE IN HIM ARE CAST AWAY .. .
So interpret that how you wish. The way I see it those who do not follow Christ commandments are in for a rough ride.
08 Oct 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Not a lot of good things said about those that would hide Christ from those
The Bible does not speak kindly of people like yourself, neither does society in general. You will find a whole load of demeaning sayings and comments about the lazy and slothful and those who find all kinds of reasons why something cannot be done.
[b]Pro 22:13 The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets. [/b]
that really need him too!
Kelly
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by Rajk999
I think John chapters 14 & 15 has the answer to your questions.
The question of whether the Holy Spirit is given to abide forever and permanently or conditionally and temporarily is answered in John 14:16. That was the verse that you quoted.
The Holy Spirit is given to abide with the Christians forever.
I know you would like to believe in this OSAS business
If you make the OSAS stand for Once Sealed Always Sealed it might be easier for some to understand. The Holy Spirit is given to abide FOREVER and the Holy Spirit is also a SEAL of God indicating to the whole universe His eternal possession of the redeemed believer.
"In whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory." (Eph. 1:13,14)
The word "saved" has a number of different nuances, so one could get tangled in arguing Once Save Always Saved. But Once Sealed Always Sealed is easier to understand. And because the SEAL of the Holy Spirit is with the saved forever -"unto the redemption of the acquired possession" proves that He will not depart until God's FULL salvation is obtained. And of course He remains forever afterwards.
So I was saved.
I am being saved.
And I will be saved.
"Saved" may be a nuanced term to deal with in the Bible. But Ephesians 1:13,14 and John 14:16 prove that this Holy Spirit is a seal upon and in the saved forever. Eternal ownership is secured by God to those who believe into Jesus Christ.
Try that on for awhile - "Once SEALED Always SEALED"
Of course you could also demonstrate God's SELECTION is also eternal - "Once Selected Always Selected".
For this post the SEAL of the Holy Spirit makes the point.
but if you read the whole chapter [and other parts of Acts for eg] it is clear that the state/conduct of the early church was very much in line with the teachings of Christ.
You are saying any disciplined Christian is a Christian who is unsaved. This of course is ludicrous. That is if you are arguing, for example, that Ananias and Saphira lost their eternal redemption and forfeited eternal life (Acts 5).
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by Rajk999
In John 14 & 15, Christ says clearly that He will make his abode with those who follow his commandments. The he says it the other way .. those who DO NOT ABIDE IN HIM ARE CAST AWAY .. .
So interpret that how you wish. The way I see it those who do not follow Christ commandments are in for a rough ride.
We are in for a rough ride either way. But I am glad that you stop short of saying that those who do not follow Christ commandments (being believers) are eternally lost again.
Saying they are in for a "rough ride" is not disputed by any Christian I have seen posting here.
Once Sealed Always Sealed is not at all contradicted by saying Christians may be in for a rough ride. For that matter the Assurance of Eternal Life is not negated by saying certain Christians are in for a rough ride.
Now let's turn to your arguably stronger example - John 15:6 -
"If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Now admittedly, this verse should cause the OSAS (either Saved or Sealed or Selected) to sit up and soberly take notice. I have noticed it for a long time.
If the verse means the believer as an disconnected branch will suffer eternal perdition then we have to ascertain that the clear word of assurance Jesus spoke before was an error. He said before that no one can pluck the saved sheep from either His hand or His Father's hand -
"And I give them [His sheep] eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:28-30)
If John 15:6 means it is possible for the believer to be snatched out of the Father's hand and the Son's hand then Jesus was wrong to speak John 10:28-30. This cannot be. The emphatic and clear teaching is that "they shall by no means perish forever".
The Father's hand has made an eternal choice is choosing the sheep in His love according to His eternal purpose (John 17:23; 6:38-39). And the Son's hand, by which He saves by His grace for the fulfillment of the Father's purpose (1:14; 6:37) are unimaginably powerful and trustworthy. The hand of the Father and the hand of the Son are eternal protection by divine keeping power. The teaching is clear.
John 15:6 however is a bit sparse. Not too much is given by explanation of what it means for the branches to be disconnected to the true vine. We have an example in the church in Corinth of a believer living in gross sin who had to be put away from the church. He did not lose his eternal salvation.
Paul warned that some would be saved yet so as through fire, losing the reward of the coming kingdom. They would suffer lose but would themselves be saved.
All told then, John 15:6 should not contradict Christ's plan teaching on the impossibility of being removed from the hand of the Father and the Son.
One teaching is an allegory of sheep being shepherded for eternal life.
The other teaching is an allegory for branches abiding for the bearing of fruit.
With all honesty, I would recommend that the discipline of the removed branch, though undoubtedly negative sounding, relates not to the lose of eternal life. It relates to discipline of not bearing fruit because of not abiding in the true vine.
IE. We may fail to abide in the presence of Christ.
We may not however be snatched out of His hand or His Father's hand for eternal life.
WHO IS "THEY" ANYWAY in John 15:6 ?
When Jesus says "... and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
He does not specify WHO gathers these non-abiding branches that have dried up. I doubt that He means that the angels gather them up to cast them into eternal perdition. But it is difficult to prove that.
From the Scriptures and from experience, I would suggest that the THEY are probably worldly people. When they notice that you are a worldly Christian like themselves they gather you up and throw you into their own worldly plans. This effectively "burns" up the spiritual inclination in the backslidden Christian in practical terms.
Many an entertainer started out singing in religious circles. If they were not solid in abiding in Christ they may have been "gathered" by worldly people to make a worldly purpose for these weakened Christians.
This could be the meaning of being burned. I do not know for sure.
However, the assurance of eternal life is so clearly taught before this chapter and afterwards, it is unlikely that Jesus is flat out contradicting that assurance in John 15.
Having said that, I would say the warning should be taken seriously. It is not frivolous. It should not be taken lightly. It simply does not, I think, go as far as to say the non-abiding branches are eternally lost.
"If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
In the Recovery Version Bible the side bar references 1 Cor. 3:15 at the word "fire". This would argue for the first explanation I gave above.
First Corinthians 3:15 - "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
That relates to the loss of reward in the coming millennial kingdom yet not the loss of eternal life.
08 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonship[b] If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
How long will the Holy Spirit be given to the disciples of Jesus ?
Is this temporarily or "for ever" ?
Does He mean He will loan the Holy Spirit to the disciples on a worth ...[text shortened]... only if you intend to keep His commandments, otherwise His abiding with you will be temporary ?[/b]Why do you ask this or care, since according to you the Holy Spirit isn't
necessary just good works are? The issue isn't that God gives His Holy
Spirit to those that accept Him, this we know He does. The only question
you are odds with is that you believe it does not matter since according to
you, good works are enough, and not only are enough the only thing that
matters.
Kelly
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Oct 14
Originally posted by KellyJayIs this addressed to Rajk999 or sonship ?
Why do you ask this or care, since according to you the Holy Spirit isn't
necessary just good works are? The issue isn't that God gives His Holy
Spirit to those that accept Him, this we know He does. The only question
you are odds with is that you believe it does not matter since according to
you, good works are enough, and not only are enough the only thing that
matters.
Kelly
08 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipI know it was a mistake to engage you in what I was hoping [foolishly]to be a fruitful discussion.I think John chapters 14 & 15 has the answer to your questions.
The question of whether the Holy Spirit is given to abide forever and permanently or conditionally and temporarily is answered in [b]John 14:16. That was the verse that you quoted.
The Holy Spirit is given to abide with the Christians forever.
[quote]
I know y ...[text shortened]... at Ananias and Saphira lost their eternal redemption and forfeited eternal life (Acts 5).[/b]
I read the first 3 or 4 lines where you took what Christ said to his 12 disciples and extrapolated that on to all the 2,500,000,000 Christians around the world and who knows how many in the last 2000 years ... totaling probably 4 to 5 billion.
Christ said that was going to be with his 12 faithful, tried and proven disciples chosen by God to sit on the 12 thrones of the 12 tribes of Israel ... forever.
Now Im pretty sure that Christ would have been with many more Christians since that time However, it is very wrong to apply that to every Christian, as Christ said who exactly he was going to be with... THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS. No amount of Bible gymnastics can change that.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
09 Oct 14
Originally posted by Rajk999
I know it was a mistake to engage you in what I was hoping [foolishly]to be a fruitful discussion.
Yes, you usually say that. But still you do give it a good college try.
It is with the Bible that you have difficulty.
Don't ascribe more to me than you should.
I read the first 3 or 4 lines where you took what Christ said to his 12 disciples and extrapolated that on to all the 2,500,000,000 Christians around the world and who knows how many in the last 2000 years ... totaling probably 4 to 5 billion.
Rajk999, it is not consistent of you to say I am extrapolating when I quote Christ's words of grace yet you are not extrapolating when you find words about His commands.
I do not accuse you of extrapolating improperly upon millions of believers when you point out Jesus says "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he is the one who loves Me ..." (John 14:21)
No problem. That word was meant for the 12 and it was meant for the 12 million. Yet when I go to the words " ... He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever"(v.16) suddenly you cry that am falsly extrapolating what was meant for a few to be for millions.
Do you see how disingenuous this sounds ?
Do you see some hypocrisy in this ?
What comes from the Master's mouth that supports your salvation by works is for the millions. What comes from the Master's mouth of the nature of grace is only for the few original disciples.
Both words are for the 12 and for the 12 million or more. The point is how they are both true and how they work together.
Christ said that was going to be with his 12 faithful, tried and proven disciples chosen by God to sit on the 12 thrones of the 12 tribes of Israel ... forever.
First of all, Peter continued to make mistakes after this discourse and even into the book of Galatians when a younger apostle Paul had to publically rebuke the senior disciple.
If the leading disciples reminds us of our frequent failures we should be encouraged that these men were not that much unlike ourselves.
Yes, I agree that the promise to sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel was specifically for them. However, the promise to sit upon a throne is also to everyone who overcomes -
" He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)
That may not be one of the twelve positions of authority over the tribes of Israel. But it is a seat of authority. Again, beside the twelve He promises the overcomers -
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)
So there will be more administrative positions in the millennium beside the twelve thrones over the twelve tribes if Israel. And Paul's word -
New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
King James Bible
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
extends to Timothy and to all disciples who lay hold of grace to endure with Him.
Now Im pretty sure that Christ would have been with many more Christians since that time However, it is very wrong to apply that to every Christian, as Christ said who exactly he was going to be with... THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS. No amount of Bible gymnastics can change that.
What gymnastics. Christ HAS been with us as He said He WOULD be with us even unto the consummation of the age (Matt. 28:20). If you do not have faith to believe that Jesus Christ is with you as He was with Peter even unto the consummation of the age, then you are staggering in unbelief.
Our function and portion in His Body may be of a different kind. But the same Christ that was with the twelve is with the believers today. There is no need for gymnastics when the exercise of faith in His word is all that is required.
Many of us are still in the process of learning His voice and following His leading, even following His moment by moment commandments. What makes you think that such believers have disappeared since the twelve fell asleep ?
Out of quantity over the centuries Christ is securing those overcomers of quality who will reign with Him. And it is not called for that we be spiritual giants.
To the church in Philadelphia Jesus commended that they had only a little strength. Yet He placed an open door of the kingdom before them. They have only a little strength and much agape love. And to these overcomers the door that no one can shut into the kingdom age is opened for them by Christ.
"And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: ... I know your works; behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut. because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name." (Rev. 3:7a,8)
This is a word to correct those who think only spiritual giants like the Apostle Peter or the Apostle Paul will be rewarded. They had a portion and others have their portion. It is faithfulness to what God has apportioned to us which counts.
09 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipIts not that hard. Once you recognize that not everything in the Bible applies to all Christians you can figure it out. Something like this applies to all people:I know it was a mistake to engage you in what I was hoping [foolishly]to be a fruitful discussion.
Yes, you usually say that. But still you do give it a good college try.
It is with the [b]Bible that you have difficulty.
Don't ascribe more to me than you should.
[quote]
I read the first 3 or 4 lines where you took what ...[text shortened]... nd others have their portion. It is faithfulness to what God has apportioned to us which counts.[/b]
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14:21-23 KJV)
This applies to only the 12 disciples:
Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (John 16:31-32 KJV)
Look at the wording and the context.
Finally I am in total agreement that Christ does not expect all his followers to be spiritual giants like Paul, and I have said nothing to imply such a thing. There are all kinds of people that Christ would accept from weak and sinful to strong resilient who are capable of resisting all kinds of evil. However, the Bible does not say that all those who accept Christ with their mouth will get eternal life. There are some sins that will not be forgiven. There are many who will claim to know Christ and will instead perish. The key to eternal life as Christ said so many times is the following of his commandments, a doctrine which you clearly reject. It is watering down Christ to say Christians will follow Christ because that is not the case and the Bible says clearly that same fall away and are rejected. Neither is it Biblical to claim that anyone who has God/Christ spirit will do good works .. again the Bible says otherwise.
So hopefully I would resist the temptation to respond to your posts in future. Our doctrines are worlds apart and discussions go nowhere.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
09 Oct 14
Originally posted by Rajk999You managed to read my whole post this time ? Why I'm flattered. lol.
Its not that hard. Once you recognize that not everything in the Bible applies to all Christians you can figure it out. Something like this applies to all people:
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14:21-23 KJV)
This applies to only the 12 disciples:
Well, I see no reason why it should not apply to all who believe in Jesus through the word of the twelve apostles.
What reason do you give that that passage is not relevant to Paul, Timothy, Luke, Silas, Barnabus or Titus, and other disciples since the passing of the twelve?
It has absolutely been my experience that as I have obeyed Christ He has manifested Himself more and more to me. I suspect the experience will continue until the day I die or I see the Lord's return.
There is a lot of this all inclusive One to be manifested !
Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. (John 16:31-32 KJV)
I fail to get your point here. Jesus was simply warning them that events were about to happen which would be a shaking of their faith.
Look at the wording and the context.
Finally I am in total agreement that Christ does not expect all his followers to be spiritual giants like Paul, and I have said nothing to imply such a thing. There are all kinds of people that Christ would accept from weak and sinful to strong resilient who are capable of resisting all kinds of evil.
I wonder if you grasp that NONE, but NONE do so in their own strength. The SAME Jesus that indwelt Paul indwells each believer in Christ.
Paul learned to LET Christ flow through him, and thus his victory. We all who have believed into Christ as Paul did must learn the same thing.
Paul was a pioneer God used to blaze the trail before us and write about his experience so that we may enter in also.
If you are naturally strong and you come to Christ, eventually you will learn not to have trust in that natural ability. This is what Peter had to learn. Peter was strong willed. He said he would NEVER deny His Lord.
But he did, three times, and finally before a little powerless girl. He did so with cowardice and cursing. His denying of Jesus was as natural as the crowing of a rooster in the early morning.
The natural man CANNOT make it to follow Christ. We all need to turn in our hearts to the indwelling Spirit of Jesus who has caused us to be born again. We have to let go and let God. We have to learn to say -
"Lord Jesus, I cannot deal with this. You are the Overcomer. You have overcome the world. Lord Jesus YOU deal with this."
Each time we do this He gains more ground in our personality. We, like Paul have to come to realize - "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives within me."
However, the Bible does not say that all those who accept Christ with their mouth will get eternal life. There are some sins that will not be forgiven. There are many who will claim to know Christ and will instead perish. The key to eternal life as Christ said so many times is the following of his commandments, a doctrine which you clearly reject. It is watering down Christ to say Christians will follow Christ because that is not the case and the Bible says clearly that same fall away and are rejected. Neither is it Biblical to claim that anyone who has God/Christ spirit will do good works .. again the Bible says otherwise.
The topic here should be Romans chapter 89. Am I correct? Romans 8 is much more on the overcoming of victorious Christian living ONCE one has been regenerated.
You know I alternate between sympathizing with your viewpoint and being unhappy with it.
I somehwat sympathize with you thought "There must be something MORE to the Christian faith than just mouthing about believing in Jesus."
With that point of concern I do sympathize. What I do not so much sympathize with is you not seeing that a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow into an overcoming Christian walk.
When you lead someone to Christ and they become regenerated, you must first help them to realize that what they have received cannot be taken away - the gift of eternal life.
Usually the first battles they will have are the accusations from the Devil against their conscience -
"Oh you think YOU can be follower of Jesus? You haven't changed a bit. How can YOU be a Christian ? You believed the Gospel last week and this week you are still tempted to cuss out people on the road and glance at pictures of scantily clothed females. How can YOU be a Christian ? You probably are not saved at all.
Try harder why don't you ? "
I tell you, you FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption. Then you go on to shepherd them to walk step by step in the indwelling Spirit of Christ. And that Spirit Jesus said to the twelve and the twelve million to follow, will abide with them FOR EVER.
Then as they mature you speak to them about the incentive of the coming millennial kingdom of reward.
To repeat, Rajk999 - I sympathize with your desire to point out the Gospel has to be more than mouthing belief in Jesus. I critique your failure to see the need to lay, as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.
So hopefully I would resist the temptation to respond to your posts in future. Our doctrines are worlds apart and discussions go nowhere.
If you are a Christian and you have trouble resisting talking to me when Jesus says not to, then next time don't try so hard. Next time when you are tempted just call on the name of the Lord Jesus -
"Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus I love you. Lord YOU deal with this temptation. Praise You Lord Jesus, I do not have to struggle or strain or strive. I only need to abide in You."
However, I don't think it is sinful for us to discuss these matters in a proper spirit.
09 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou said this three times
You managed to read my whole post this time ? ...
1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..
2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.
3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.
If I repeat myself that much in one post then it has to be essential and I got it straight from the mouth of Christ of the Apostles, that is crystal clear doctrine.
Like how I harp on Christ commandments because He said:
- if you follow my commandments you are my disciples
- if you love me follow my commandments
- you are my friends if you follow my commandments
etc etc.
So could you point to a reference ? [Note : not an explanation just a reference, thanks]