Romans 8

Originally posted by Rajk999

You said this three times

1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.


If I repeat myself that much in one post then it has to be essential and I got it straight from the mouth of Christ of the Apostles, that is crystal clear doctrine.

Fair enough.

Two responses I have to this.

1.) I certainly regard the book of Hebrews to be Jesus Christ SPEAKING to us, if not from His earthly ministry then through His heavenly ministry via the apostles.

Do you regard the book of Hebrews as the word of God as the Gospel of Matthew in the "red letters" for example, is the word of God ? I do.

Hebrews chapter 6, which I think you like, says of the foundation -

"Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a FOUNDATION of repentance from dead works and of faith in God, ..." (Hebrews 6:1)

Did you get that ? The FOUNDATION of the Christian life is repentance from dead works and faith in God. This has to mean no longer relying on your own good works of the law to redeem you forever, but faith in Jesus Christ who is God sent and indeed God incarnated to be our Redeemer.

Foundational - not to trust for eternal life our good works - "dead works" because the unbeliever is essentially "dead" in his spiritual being towards God. Repentance from DEAD WORKS is replaced with FAITH in God. Christ is God sent and God incarnated to SAVE us.

But you may object in case you do not regard the book of Hebrews as the inspired oracles of God - His word, as I think you should.

"But where in the red letters of Jesus' direct quotations from the Gospel is this 'foundation' you speak of ? "

Fair enough, I submit that it is here as well, right in the "red letters".

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes it away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit.

YOU ARE ALREADY CLEAN BECAUSE OF HE WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU." (John 15:1,2)

Excuse me for raising my voice. But you can see that the disciples, whether they will taken away from abiding OR pruned to bear even more fruit - "are already CLEAN" .

Their ABIDING and fruit bearing is upon the FOUNDATION that they have ALREADY been made clean through the word which Jesus has spoken to them and they have believed.

The Foundation of Justification, of being CLEAN from iniquity before God, is already lain. And UPON that foundation other matters important to the eternal purpose of God are now introduced. That is mainly ABIDING in Christ for the fruit bearing.

The same thing I think is conveyed in Christ speaking of His coming redemptive death -

"And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you. For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27,28)

You see Jesus does not say "ONLY forgiveness is important in the new covenant." But He does emphasize that the BEGINNING of the new covenant is FORGIVENESS. In other words, a foundation for ALL that is included in the new covenant is the fact of eternal redemption - forgiveness for all past sins.

So to disciple the nations to follow Jesus we should lay a firm foundation that in the blood of Christ there is eternal redemption. We are FORGIVEN. Let is start there.

I said "START" there. Please do not morph this into me teaching that we FINISH there. Forgiveness and cleansing with His shed blood is the Christian's foundation.

Like how I harp on Christ commandments because He said:
- if you follow my commandments you are my disciples
- if you love me follow my commandments
- you are my friends if you follow my commandments
etc etc.

I am not saying that you should not point out the commandments of Christ.

But His commandments are too numerous and there are many unwritten. How I speak with my spouse today in a disagreement, will involve some commandments of the Lord Jesus living within me.

Most of the time His commandments are simply NOT to do something which we normally would do.

"Don't say that." - a command of Jesus.
" Don't think that. " - another command of Jesus.
"Don't go that way." - another command of Jesus.

A young child first learns the word "NO". If you raise kids you will find after Mommy or Daddy they will pick up the word "No". That is because your raising them will involving you saying many many times "No."

Spiritually speaking it is similar. Many times the Holy Spirit which IS the indwelling Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 3:17; 1 Cor 15:45) will begin to instruct us by saying "No" to what we have spontaneously done by habit without thinking.

And this kind of inward regulating goes deeper and deeper. It is a life long process from which the disciple never graduates.

And he or she also never graduates from the need to believe that the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all sins. That is the firm foundation.

So could you point to a reference ? [Note : not an explanation just a reference, thanks]

I think I did above.

Do you need more ? Look at the chapter under reference, John 14. Look at the sequence of His instructions here:

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also; and greater works than these he shall do because I am going to the Father." (John 14:10-12)

Preceding the WORKS that the disciples are to do, is the believing that Jesus is Divine, the Son of God. IE the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. If this is too profound for us we should believe because of the works that Christ did.

Believing INTO Christ is foundational.
His works flowing out of the believer are the following issue or the normal Christian life.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] You said this three times

[b] 1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.


If I repeat myself that mu ...[text shortened]... .
His works flowing out of the believer are the following issue or the normal Christian life.[/b]

I read all of that but there is nothing you quoted from the Bible apparently remotely resembling what you said here :

1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.

The passages you quoted are saying other things.

So the question is how is that so important [according to you] and the Apostles did not spell it out clearly. Isn't that odd.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I read all of that but there is nothing you quoted from the Bible apparently remotely resembling what you said here :

[b]1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's ...[text shortened]... t so important [according to you] and the Apostles did not spell it out clearly. Isn't that odd.

What is odd to me is that you cannot see the foundation for the Christian life.

The book of Hebrews even USED the word "foundation" and you still say you cannot see the matter.

That is odd.

How about - "According to the grace of God given to me, as a wise masterbuilder I laid a FOUNDATION, and another builds upon it. ... For another FOUNDATION no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cor. 3:10,11)

The FOUNDATION is a living Person - Jesus Christ.
First you have to be put INTO Jesus Christ.
You cannot be put into Jesus Christ apart from eternal redemption and forgiveness of sins.

If you miss this it must be because you want to.

Then there is the passage which I NEVER see you refute or even say much about. That is the passage saying that what was built UPON the foundation of Jesus Christ might conceivably be burned up. But the believer is still saved though he suffers loss and does not receive a reward.

Let me see if YOU rather than me can write out the passage -

Write out for me First Corinthians 3:12 - 15.

I need to be assured that that passage really does exist in your New Testament. Please quote it for us.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] You said this three times

[b] 1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.


If I repeat myself that mu ...[text shortened]... .
His works flowing out of the believer are the following issue or the normal Christian life.[/b]

First, your passage in Hebrews is advising the Jews that their following of the Law of Moses is 'dead works. The doctrine of Christ could never be called 'dead works' as you implied.

Next, the only passages that speak of 'foundation' are referring to a foundation of GOOD WORKS and of following Christ commandments.

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19 KJV)

Here Paul is warning the materially rich to focus on being rich in GOOD WORKS AND LAYING UP A STORE OF THAT - GOOD WORKS, SO THAT THEY MAY GET ETERNAL LIFE.

Christ used the word 'foundation' here in a similar sense:

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. (Luke 6:46-48 KJV)

Here is Christ warning that A FIRM FOUNDATION IS DOING WHAT HE SAID.

Im not sure how anyone can be comfortable knowing that what they so firmly believe is just not in the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
What is odd to me is that you cannot see the foundation for the Christian life.

The book of [b]Hebrews even USED the word "foundation" and you still say you cannot see the matter.

That is odd.

How about - "According to the grace of God given to me, as a wise masterbuilder I laid a FOUNDATION, and another builds upon it. ... For ...[text shortened]... to be assured that that passage really does exist in your New Testament. Please quote it for us.

The foundation is Jesus Christ YES.

But what about Jesus Christ.

The foundation is about the commandments and good works.

You are adding to the Bible to suit your doctrine.

None of this is in the Bible

1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.

You made that up.

Originally posted by Rajk999

First, your passage in Hebrews is advising the Jews that their following of the Law of Moses is 'dead works. The doctrine of Christ could never be called 'dead works' as you implied.

The unbelievers are said to be "alienated from the life of God".
The life of God is embodied today in Jesus Christ - "I am ... the life" (John 14:6)

One not abiding in Christ can just as much be laboring on "dead works" as one attempting to be justified before God by keeping the law of Moses.

If you dispute this I would refer you to Paul's letter to the church in Corinth. In chapter 13 he says that those speaking in tongues (which is certainly a New Testament matter) yet without the love of the indwelling Christ are making a dead sound and lifeless sound like a clanging cymbal or lifeless brass instrument.

" If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become sounding brass and a clanging cymbal." (1 Cor. 13:1)

In other words, though your matter is connected with New Testament teaching it becomes dead works. So "dead works" is not only related to the keeping of the law of Moses to be justified before God for eternal life.

The Apostle John warns that love is the expression of divine life. And he warns that to not love the brothers is to abide in death.

"We know that we have passed our of death into life because we love the brothers. He who does not love abides in death." ( 1 John 3:14)

So a new covenant believer, in his expression can produce dead works. This could mean being very busy yet with no outflow of the love of Christ for the brotherhood coming from him. This is not the dead works of keeping the law of Moses for justification. This is the dead work of not allowing the living Christ to flow through the believer in agape love for the brothers in Christ.

Next, the only passages that speak of 'foundation' are referring to a foundation of GOOD WORKS and of following Christ commandments.

In Matthew 8:24 - 17 I would say that is true. However for the house built upon the rock of Christ's teaching to be damaged by the rain, the wind, or the river is not to become eternally lost.

It is to be defeated as to one's kingdom living and kingdom testimony.

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19 KJV) [/b]

Great passage. Thanks.

A better translation renders the last part this way - " ... that they may lay hold on that which is really life." (RcV)

Darby - " ... that they may lay hold on the true life. "

ASV - " ... that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed."

GWT - " ... In this way they take hold of what life really is."

NAS - " ... so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed."

Even the NIV does better on this verse - " ... so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."

This passage teaches that in this church age we receive eternal life in order to LIVE in the realm of that life. That is rather than ignore that life and continue to live a defeated life in the old fallen Adamic nature.

To do so in this age is wise because in the next age of the kingdom we will have laid up a good foundation for further enjoyment of this life in the age to come. This eternal life we have is REALLY life. It is the life indeed. We should realize that today in the church age and seek to abide in this life.

The passage does not say not doing good works will cause us to not be justified and perish forever, even though we have believed in Christ.

Here Paul is warning the materially rich to focus on being rich in GOOD WORKS AND LAYING UP A STORE OF THAT - GOOD WORKS, SO THAT THEY MAY GET ETERNAL LIFE.

They are laying up in store for the REWARD during the millennial kingdom.

Christ used the word 'foundation' here in a similar sense:

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. (Luke 6:46-48 KJV)

The words are the strong foundation. And the words He has uttered from chapter 5. All that He taught them from chapter 5 are the words which will be a good foundation. I agree.

But the collapse of the house because of failing to live a kingdom life should not be thought to mean to not be forgiven forever. OTHERWISE in the same Gospel of Matthew, Jesus would not have taught that the shedding of His blood was central to the new testament for the forgiveness of sins.

Notice that He did not say build upon His teaching in the sermon on the mount would lead to forgiveness of sins for eternal redemption. Rather it was the shedding of His blood which would remove the guilt of sins for the many who believe in Him.

"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

So I agree with you that obedience to the will of God as expressed in many passages in the sermon on the mount is taught as a firm foundation upon which to build. I agree with you usage of Matthew 8:24-27 which is mirrored in Luke 6:46-48 [/b]. I concur completely with that understanding.

Obedience is there a firm foundation. However, in BOTH Matthew and Luke it is His review of the purpose of His going to the cross which places a even more foundational definition of the new covenant. And they cannot partake of Christ unless they are justified before God by His redemptive death.

"And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My blood, which is being poured out for you." (Luke 22:20)

The two passages about Christ conducting His last supper emphatically prove that the forgiveness of sins for a relationship with God at ALL - must be obtained through the shedding of Christ's redemptive blood on His cross.

So, all things considered, under your foundation of obedience in for kingdom living is getting into the kingdom to begin with through the redemption of Christ. And that we did not work for. We believe INTO Christ and it immediately becomes eternally effective for us.

Here is Christ warning that A FIRM FOUNDATION IS DOING WHAT HE SAID.

Im not sure how anyone can be comfortable knowing that what they so firmly believe is just not in the Bible.

You are only partially right. I know this because in the Gospel of John the evangelist makes certain that we understand that the work of God was first to believe into the Son.

"Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28,29)

The reason I point this out is not to argue that ONLY believing is important to the purpose of God. It is rather to point out that believing into Christ is the basic "work" which forms the foundation for living by Him.

If you are continuously doubting that you are IN Him then you have a weak foundation for living by Him.

Originally posted by sonship

First, your passage in Hebrews is advising the Jews that their following of the Law of Moses is 'dead works. The doctrine of Christ could never be called 'dead works' as you implied.

The unbelievers are said to be [b]"alienated from the life of God".
The life of God is embodied today in Jesus Christ - "I am ... the life" (John ...[text shortened]... are continuously doubting that you are IN Him then you have a weak foundation for living by Him.

I agree with some of that. However you are not dealing with the question. Where in the Bible did you find this :

1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.

After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

(1 Peter 5:10)

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

(1 John 5:11-13)

Originally posted by Rajk999

1. a firm foundation for eternal salvation is required to grow ..

Look back at the book of Hebrews. You should be able to see that the writer very much wants to cause the readers to mature on, develop on, grow on after they are clear about the foundation. How can it be missed ?

"Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let is be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God." (6:1)

Paraphrase. Come on brothers! We have lain a foundation for your Christian life already. Why should we have to do so again ?? Let us leave now this word of "the beginning of Christ" and go on to maturity.

Isn't the tone that he wants them not to waste more time going over and over again the elementary foundational matters that they may grow on to maturity ?

If the foundation is well lain in their understanding, their should be no need to have to repeat it again. This is the tone. And this proves that a good foundation is needed for further development.

"The beginning of the Christ" is exactly " the foundation ".

The writer is perplexed at the need to have to speak of rudimentary matters again -

"For when because of the time you ought to be teachers, you have need for someone to teach you what the rudiments of the beginning of the oracles of God are and have become those who have need of milk and not of solid food." (5:12)

Children develop strong and healthy teeth. The calcium makes strong teeth. Milk is ingested first for a period of time. Then more solid food CAN be assimilated.

The foundation is thought of as MILK.
The beginning of the oracles of God are counted as MILK

The word of righteousness is counted as solid food.
The taking in of milk is foundational to them latter being able to digest solid food.

One is elementary and comes first. Then the other follows when maturity as allowed for it. That is standing firmly on a well lain foundation.

"For everyone who partakes of milk is inexperienced in the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

But solid food is for the full-grown, who because of practice have their faculties exercised for discriminating between both good and evil.

THEREFORE leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God, ..." (Hebrews 5:12 - 6:1)

2. FIRST have to lay a firm foundation of Grace and the Assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption.

3. as the New Testament lays, a firm foundation of God's grace for the normal overcoming Christian walk.

You should be able to see this in Hebrews five and six.

Please notice that another item which forms a part of the foundation is "eternal judgment".

Eternal judgment has been SOLVED in the affirmative for the believer. He is redeemed from eternal judgment for ever. This he obtained in "repentance from dead works and of faith toward God."

Not work toward God but FAITH toward God. This is speaking of justification by faith. And this is also speaking of once justified forever always justified forever. And this the writer says in a matter of the foundation.

He desires not to have to repeat this assurance yet again. He prefers that they believe this foundational matter of redemption from eternal judgment and go on to more solid food. This more solid food is termed also "the word of righteousness".

That means subjective righteous living. It is more dispositional rather than positional. But the positional must be firmly established in their minds before they can go on to the dispositional.

But there are very stern warnings in the book of Hebrews.

That is correct. Part of the word of righteousness is that there is reward and discipline for the sons of God apart from being eternal punishment. This fact is testified by the writer's words that every SON that God receives is also a candidate for God's loving discipline in varying degrees.

And you have completely forgotten the exhortation which reasons with you as with sons, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faith when reproved by Him;

For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives." (Hebrews 12:5,6)

In this church age AND in the coming millennial kingdom age there is the matter of God's discipline of His sons. We should not faint because of such loving discipline for our own maturity.

"But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers then you are illegitimate and not sons. " (12:8)

Hebrews says much about sons of God under varying degrees of loving dicipline. But this temporary discipline is upon a firm foundation of salvation from eternal judgement through faith towards God - IE God in Christ in His redemptive act - death and resurrection.

Originally posted by sonship
Hebrews says much about sons of God under varying degrees of loving dicipline. But this temporary discipline is upon a firm foundation of salvation from eternal judgement through faith towards God - IE God in Christ in His redemptive act - death and resurrection

Hebrews 12:20 also says
"God said that animals must be stoned to death if they lay foot upon Mt. Zion"