Sarah Palin and Holy War in Iraq?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I know it's about misrepresentation.

Please read what I posted earlier as many times as it takes for you to wrap your mind around it:
[b]You then tried to play "innocent" and claim that you don't know what you're supposed to have misrepresented right after I'd just pointed out that you'd misrepresented my position on salvation. You then give an exampl ...[text shortened]... if you pointed out the parts you're having trouble with, I can help you through it.

For me the whole issue of salvation is tied up with God , the Holy Spirit and the entire range of Jesus's teachings.

It's fundamental principle that you look at the whole picture. I said that your vision of salvation is merit based because you seem to think that there is only a certain level of transformation (ie utter defeat of sin) that is acceptable to God.

It's simple. You seem to think that a man is only acceptable and loveable to God WHEN he is transformed. I think that he is transformed BECAUSE he finds out that he is acceptable and loveable to God.

Since I also believe that transformation only occurs via the Spirit of an active living Father God (which is incidently what grace is all about ) then it's quite a relevant question.

It 's also relevant to wider issue of missrepresentation. When I said "I don't know what it is that I am supposed to be misrepresenting" I was refering to the whole issue of what your position actually is. It was a general point. There's loads of things I would like to clarify with you.

Are you aware of the fact that you are one of a few (if not the only ) people (person) who has not made it clear if they are an Atheist or not?

So I ask you again. Do you believe that the living active Father God that Jesus taught about actually exists?

If you are really concerned about being misrepresented then you will put the record straight.

Originally posted by knightmeister
For me the whole issue of salvation is tied up with God , the Holy Spirit and the entire range of Jesus's teachings.

It's fundamental principle that you look at the whole picture. I said that your vision of salvation is merit based because you seem to think that there is only a certain level of transformation (ie utter defeat of sin) that is acce are really concerned about being misrepresented then you will put the record straight.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, I don't believe in "Salvation by merit"/"salvation by works" and all that usually entails, yet you insist on depicting it that way. This is misleading and misrepresents my position. What part of this don't you understand?

The fact that you persist in misrepresenting me in this and other ways shows that you are a LIAR and an unrepentant one at that.

You exemplify everything that is wrong with "Christians" and "Christianity".

No wonder so many have such a low opinion of those of your ilk.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I bet a lot of people suffered very badly.

Aye. Even the animals were dead, save those onboard the ark. It was no picnic for the survivors either--having to rebuild civilization. But God did give the inhabitants plenty of warning. As maurader astutely pointed out, they were a wicked bunch.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
As I've pointed out repeatedly, I don't believe in "Salvation by merit"/"salvation by works" and all that usually entails, yet you insist on depicting it that way. This is misleading and misrepresents my position. What part of this don't you understand?

The fact that you persist in misrepresenting me in this and other ways shows that you are a LIAR and ...[text shortened]... d "Christianity".

No wonder so many have such a low opinion of those of your ilk.

You see the problem though? You say what your position isn't but not exactly what it is. It's all generalised and non-specific jellyspeak.

In months from now I will say something like "I suspect that ToO is an Atheist really who doesn't believe in the active God that Jesus said he was following " ....then......

You will say that I am a liar or something and misrepresenting your position whilst forgetting that you had already been asked to clarify this simply and directly.

You rationalise away by over complicating and going round in circles. You talk the talk on Jesus but you won't say if you believe in the ressurection , or Jesus's Father , the Holy Spirit, etc etc. So it's impossible to explore your position or see if it holds together.

It's obvious that you just don't want anyone to really know what you believe about God. I'm not the only one who has asked you these basic questions.

So don't come over the "poor me I'm being sooooo misrepresented " when you won't even represent yourself properly . If it bothered you that much you would set us all straight.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Aye. Even the animals were dead, save those onboard the ark. It was no picnic for the survivors either--having to rebuild civilization. But God did give the inhabitants plenty of warning. As maurader astutely pointed out, they were a wicked bunch.

Do you suppose you are more or less wicked than the average toddler who drowned in the flood?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You see the problem though? You say what your position isn't but not exactly what it is. It's all generalised and non-specific jellyspeak.

In months from now I will say something like "I suspect that ToO is an Atheist really who doesn't believe in the active God that Jesus said he was following " ....then......

You will say that I am a liar or yourself properly . If it bothered you that much you would set us all straight.

You're the one talking around in circles. Take this topic of your misrepresenting my position on salvation. Instead of sticking to this topic you've tried to talk about just about everything else.

Specifically we are talking about this statement that you made:
"The Jews were also stuck in the merit/salvation cycle (eg ToO)..."

I responded:
"I do not believe in the "merit/salvation" conceptual model of the Jews and what that usually entails. I believe that Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. I believe that Jesus taught salvation through transformation"

You responded:
"So do I. I just think it's Jesus that does the transforming via the Holy Spirit and not ourselves independently. It's a team effort initiated by grace through faith. But on the transformation issue we are agreement. I think we just disagree on whether it's God that does the transforming."

So you are well aware that I don't believe in the "merit /salvation cycle" of the Jews, yet cited me as an example of someone who does.

The fact that I've made this correction numerous times and you have repeatedly portrayed my beliefs on this topic as something else shows that you are not only a liar, but one without conscience.

Then you have the audacity to say that it's because I refuse to make clarifications even though I've repeatedly made clarifications on this topic.

You are easily one of the most dishonest people I've ever come across.

Is this what one can expect from a "salvation by grace Christian"? Are you so in love with the idea that "God loves you the way you are" that you feel that you don't have to follow the commandments of God / Jesus?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you suppose you are more or less wicked than the average toddler who drowned in the flood?

Assuming there were toddlers who drowned in the flood, an assumption I am not willing to make, then I'd say I would be average on the "wickedness scale" 🙂

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You're the one talking around in circles. Take this topic of your misrepresenting my position on salvation. Instead of sticking to this topic you've tried to talk about just about everything else.

Specifically we are talking about this statement that you made:
[b]"The Jews were also stuck in the merit/salvation cycle (eg ToO)..."

I responded: ...[text shortened]... you feel that you don't have to follow the commandments of God / Jesus?[/b]

Yes , you did clarify that you were into transformation and not merit based salvation.

I understood this. However, it's central to then explore whether you believe that there is an active , living God who does the transforming.

I would say that that's a slightly important issue to clarify , don't you?

So instead of harping on about the past and what a terrible person I am and all that let's clarify this now.

According to your logic , the honesty , or dishonesty "of any one individual has no bearing on the issue".

Let the past go. Just answer the question.

Do you believe in the active , living Father God that Jesus preached? Yes or No?

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Assuming there were toddlers who drowned in the flood, an assumption I am not willing to make, then I'd say I would be average on the "wickedness scale" 🙂

The flood killed everybody except Noah and his family. What about the word 'everybody' implies that toddlers are excluded?

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Assuming there were toddlers who drowned in the flood, an assumption I am not willing to make, then I'd say I would be average on the "wickedness scale" 🙂

Do you think any retarded people drowned in the flood, or any pregnant mothers?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes , you did clarify that you were into transformation and not merit based salvation.

I understood this. However, it's central to then explore whether you believe that there is an active , living God who does the transforming.

I would say that that's a slightly important issue to clarify , don't you?

So instead of harping on about the past ion.

Do you believe in the active , living Father God that Jesus preached? Yes or No?

"Yes , you did clarify that you were into transformation and not merit based salvation. I understood this. "

Not only did I clarify it on this thread, I've had to clarify it for months because you've repeatedly made similar false assertions on this topic.

The majority of your posts after that contained all manner of deceit, i.e., distortions, half-truths, and outright lies. Here are but a few examples:

KM: "The other problem is that unless you are explicit and clear about where you stand on certain things then others are forced to make educated guesses. When those guesses are wrong or misrepresentative then are you surprised?"

Here you try to dismiss your lie by basically asserting that it is because I have not been explicit and clear. This inspite of the fact that you'd just acknowledged that you understood where I stand. This is a lie.

KM: "The truth is I don't even know what it is I am supposed to be misrepresenting."

This is another lie. If you understood where I stand, you understood what you were misrepresenting. The fact that you preface it with "the truth is" makes it all the more apalling.

KM: "This little mini debate we are having is about misrepresentation. My point was that I didn't know what it was that I was supposed to be misrepresenting because you don't answer straight questions that offer clarification."

This is yet another lie. Once again, if you understood where I stand, you understood what you were misrepresenting.

KM: "I would defend your right to not answer the question but don't duck and dive with nothing answers.... just say "I don't want to answer the question" OR " I refuse to answer the question"

This is deceitful at best. I've stated numerous times that I don't want to answer ALL your questions and why. Here you try to portray yourself as being willing to defend my right not to answer questions.

KM: "You see the problem though? You say what your position isn't but not exactly what it is. It's all generalised and non-specific jellyspeak."

This is deceitful at best. This was after I stated "As I've pointed out repeatedly, I don't believe in 'Salvation by merit'/'salvation by works' and all that usually entails, yet you insist on depicting it that way" rather than going to the trouble of restating what you acknowledged as understanding earlier.

It's just a stream of deceit after deceit.

You've been doing this for months. You've been stalking me for months making all manner of disparaging remarks and resorting to all manner of deceit, i.e., distortions, half-truths, and outright lies.

Now you try to dismiss this ongoing atrocious behavior with the following:
"So instead of harping on about the past and what a terrible person I am and all that let's clarify this now... Let the past go. Just answer the question."

I ask you once again:
Is this what one can expect from a "salvation by grace Christian"? Are you so in love with the idea that "God loves you the way you are" that you feel that you don't have to follow the commandments of God / Jesus?

You not only don't follow the commandments of God / Jesus, you don't even exhibit basic decency.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Yes , you did clarify that you were into transformation and not merit based salvation. I understood this. "

Not only did I clarify it on this thread, I've had to clarify it for months because you've repeatedly made similar false assertions on this topic.

The majority of your posts after that contained all manner of deceit, i.e., distortions / Jesus, you don't even exhibit basic decency.[/b]

I ask you once again:
Is this what one can expect from a "salvation by grace Christian"? Are you so in love with the idea that "God loves you the way you are" that you feel that you don't have to follow the commandments of God / Jesus?----------------ToO---------------------------------------


Ok , now we are talking. You have asked me a direct question. You want me to answer I guess? I will answer , for now it will be brief.

KM ANSWER----> I am indeed in love with the idea that God loves me as I am now and that his love is unconditonal. It's very liberating and challenging. Because I don't have to change in order for God to love me it means that any change in me is motivated by love and a desire to be whole rather than a "bargaining" position where I am hoping to gain His approval. The best kind of parental love is unconditional. A parent who loves his child only when they are "good" does not understand this. Deep transforming love is unconditional in nature , so although God loves me now as much as he ever will , I still "have to" respond to this (not out of fear but out of love). The greatest commandment is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind" Jesus said this remember? So a God who is loveable must love with a deep love that is unconditional. Of course , you need to actually believe he is there to start with as well.

So , with this in mind , I have now had a go at answering your question without hesitation or evasion. Now please kindly show the same respect for me. Let's test this "basic decency" of yours. It won't take long......


Do you believe in the active , living Father God that Jesus preached? Yes or No?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I ask you once again:
Is this what one can expect from a "salvation by grace Christian"? Are you so in love with the idea that "God loves you the way you are" that you feel that you don't have to follow the commandments of God / Jesus?----------------ToO---------------------------------------


Ok , now we are talking. You have asked me a direct q ...[text shortened]... you believe in the active , living Father God that Jesus preached? Yes or No?

I hope you realize that you didn't answer either question, which were rhetorical anyway. You merely restated your beliefs despite your claim that you were going to answer them.

You are easily one of the most dishonest people I've ever come across.

From what you've shown on this forum, this "deep transforming love" has only managed to "transform" you into a "terrible person".

If God is truth, you not only have no love for God, you have no respect for God either.

You only have love for yourself.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I hope you realize that you didn't answer either question, which were rhetorical anyway. You merely restated your beliefs despite your claim that you were going to answer them.

You are easily one of the most dishonest people I've ever come across.

From what you've shown on this forum, this "deep transforming love" has only managed to "transform" y o love for God, you have no respect for God either.

You only have love for yourself.

At least I had a go at it though.

Your question was a little bit more open ended and ambiguous than mine. I'm guessing that you weren't looking for a yes/no response.

Oh well , I tried to answer your question it wasn't what you were looking for , but I DID try. I can try again if you like.

Meanwhile , this decency thing you were talking about. I see. Hmm........

Still you refuse to answer my question with just 2-3 charactors (yes /no) even after I have had the decency to answer yours. I can see what's going to happen here. I will have to guess what your answer might be and you will call me a liar again. Very decent of you mate. It's not even a hard question to answer (yes/no)

From the very beginning you have refused to answer any question that you thought might threaten your position. That's just intellectually dishonest.

So......here we go again....


Do you believe in the active , living Father God that Jesus preached? Yes or No?

Just answer the question. If the question itself is not threatening to you then it will do no harm to you to answer it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
At least I had a go at it though.

Your question was a little bit more open ended and ambiguous than mine. I'm guessing that you weren't looking for a yes/no response.

Oh well , I tried to answer your question it wasn't what you were looking for , but I DID try. I can try again if you like.

Meanwhile , this decency thing you were talking abou the question itself is not threatening to you then it will do no harm to you to answer it.

"Still you refuse to answer my question with just 2-3 charactors (yes /no) even after I have had the decency to answer yours."

You're really pathetic. If it isn't deceit after deceit, it's stupid assertion after stupid assertion.

1) Once again, the questions were rhetorical.

2) Once again, you didn't answer either question.

3) Your behavior has been anything but decent. As I showed earlier and you admitted, you intentionally misrepresented my position on salvation. As I showed earlier, this thread is littered with deceit after deceit. As I showed earlier, you've been stalking me for months making all manner of disparaging remarks and resorting to all manner of deceit, i.e., distortions, half-truths, and outright lies. You don't even have the decency to stop posting about me even though I've asked you to stop numerous times.

4) As I have stated numerous times, I don't intend to debate anything with you. I don't want to answer any questions from you. You have shown yourself to be as dishonest as they come.