science and God

Originally posted by amannion
I'm with you Kelly.
What's with these inane questions linking science and god. There is not, and can never be, a scientific proof of a supernatural entity.
How many ways do you all need to ask and answer the same damned question?
God cannot be proved or disproved - you either believe it exists and see all the proof you need around you, or you don't belie ...[text shortened]... see no proof. There is no alternative - despite what some so called 'agnostics' might say.

“…God cannot be proved…”

Correct.

“…or disproved …”

Correct.

“…- you either believe it exists and SEE all the proof you need around you, ….” (my emphasis)

This logically contradicts your sub-statement “…God cannot be proved…”; If we can SEE proof than that which we can see IS proof and therefore you are implying here that God CAN be proven!

But we don’t SEE this “proof” you claim we see! –how do I know we don’t see it? -Because I don’t see it. And, me or anyone sane merely believing something doesn’t make them “see” it! Unless, perhaps some people would weirdly “see” or hear voices etc. via hallucinations/delusions from merely believed that something is true? Perhaps if these same people convinced themselves that the tooth fairy exists then they would “see” or “hear” or “feel” the existence of “proof” of the tooth fairy?

“Seeing” any REAL proof is independent on what you believe! -you should be able to see any real proof regardless of what you believe or want to believe else it isn’t real proof. Any apparent image/sound/feeling that is dependent on what you believe is not “proof” of anything other than something weird going on inside your head.

Originally posted by duecer
science is a wonderful thing. The technology we develope from it has eased the suffering of Billions; yet science can never do what religion does. Science cannot answer important questions like: why I am I here? What is the purpose of life? Why am I unhappy? How can I be happy?

No, science has its place and its use, but it will never replace faith

“…Science cannot answer important questions like: why I am I here?...”

What about evolution? That explains one reason why we are here although there are obviously many other factors involved.

“…What is the purpose of life?...”

I would agree that science cannot answer this because it is up to each of us to choose our own purpose so the purpose of your life is whatever you want it to be.

“…Why am I unhappy? How can I be happy?...”

The science of psychology, psychiatry and neurology should help to answer these types of questions.


“…No, science has its place and its use, but it will never replace faith…”

I think this is missing the point which is that faith is not required for anything in the first place.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Well I'm definitely missing something because the arrows on the quad diagram seem to indicate counter-clockwise motion at the centre, whereas the dancers only turn to their left which, as you can see from the clip, gives clockwise motion at the centre.

The turn is definitely meant to be to the left (Inferno parallel and all) so the direction of the arrows in the diagram must be incorrect.

Well, if you do a search for 'quad turn left Beckett', a Google book (A Companion to Samuel Beckett, Gontarski) shows up at a page devoted to some combinatorical exegesis that might interest you.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“…Science cannot answer important questions like: why I am I here?...”

What about evolution? That explains one reason why we are here although there are obviously many other factors involved.

I would say that is more an answer to "How am I here?", not "Why am I here?"

"Why" implies a purpose. Which you answered next in reply to "What is the purpose of life?" 🙂

Although on an evolutionary perspective, there isn't a purpose, but as you said, we can make a purpose within our lives.

Originally posted by pink floyd123
VERY NICE, i have read alot about the laws of physics and it seems to me that there is an inteligent desin its not just jumbo mumbo and i am not a religion freak but i can see the day when they at least come close to finding GOD

Wouldn't the finding of God in a scientific sense constitute a fraud by its very nature?

Originally posted by bbarr
Thanks. Although some of our disagreements are intractable (and heated!), I always read your posts. Whenever you take issue with something I've written, I always stop and wonder whether I've mischaracterized your view, or have misjudged my arguments in some way. We both give as good as we get, I think, but we get further when we step back and try to underst ...[text shortened]... of logic, inferences licensed by logic, or anything else of this sort.

Still chewing...

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“…Science cannot answer important questions like: why I am I here?...”

What about evolution? That explains one reason why we are here although there are obviously many other factors involved.

“…What is the purpose of life?...”

I would agree that science cannot answer this because it is up to each of us to choose our own purpose so the purpos ...[text shortened]... k this is missing the point which is that faith is not required for anything in the first place.

evolution answers only why am I homo sapien, i.e. bipedal, why we have a certain sized brain etc... it still doesn't answer why we are here, it only tracks the progress to here.

The purpose of life is whatever you want it to be? sorry you're going to have to do betteer than that. Suppose I want my purpose to be a seriel killer?

The science of psychology, etc... cannot make us happy. the waiting rooms of counselors, doctors and pyscologists are lined with perpetually unhappy people. further, there are hundreds of millions more people who are completely healthy (mentally) yet they are fundamentally unhappy. They lack purpose and are unable to articulate the source of their malaize. Frued himself acknowledged the role of religion in easing, mitigating, and even reversing this phenominon


No, I think you are missing the point...science cannot fill the voids in an empty life, it is merely a tool, and not a very good one when it comes to making people happy and content.

I think you underestimate how much faith plays a role in (even your) daily life. What assurance do you have that the world will not be crushed by a meteor today? How do you know that you won't be struck by lightning as you step outside? you don't, yet you get up everyday, and head out into the world. you work, live, laugh, play, dream, and plan for a future that you are not promised. Without some level of faith that things are going to work out, your mind would be unable to cope or do any of these things.


Faith matters

Originally posted by duecer
evolution answers only why am I homo sapien, i.e. bipedal, why we have a certain sized brain etc... it still doesn't answer why we are here, it only tracks the progress to here.

The purpose of life is whatever you want it to be? sorry you're going to have to do betteer than that. Suppose I want my purpose to be a seriel killer?

The science of psychology ...[text shortened]... to work out, your mind would be unable to cope or do any of these things.


Faith matters

duecer, I think this is one of the best posts I've ever read here on the Spirituality forum. Well done sir!

Originally posted by duecer
evolution answers only why am I homo sapien, i.e. bipedal, why we have a certain sized brain etc... it still doesn't answer why we are here, it only tracks the progress to here.

The purpose of life is whatever you want it to be? sorry you're going to have to do betteer than that. Suppose I want my purpose to be a seriel killer?

The science of psychology ...[text shortened]... to work out, your mind would be unable to cope or do any of these things.


Faith matters

Still, faith in everyday things, like the sun coming up, can be understood by scientists and theists alike. Its when you introduce having faith in a particurlar god that we have problems.
God is not an entity.

Originally posted by lausey
I would say that is more an answer to "How am I here?", not "Why am I here?"

"Why" implies a purpose. Which you answered next in reply to "What is the purpose of life?" 🙂

Although on an evolutionary perspective, there isn't a purpose, but as you said, we can make a purpose within our lives.

“…I would say that is more an answer to "How am I here?", not "Why am I here?"

"Why" implies a purpose. Which you answered next in reply to "What is the purpose of life?" 🙂…”

I agree that that was what was REALLY implied by the question 🙂 –but I would disagree with the implied assumption made by some who ask such questions that there is an objective “purpose” to our lives that is independent from what we want it to be.

Originally posted by duecer
evolution answers only why am I homo sapien, i.e. bipedal, why we have a certain sized brain etc... it still doesn't answer why we are here, it only tracks the progress to here.

The purpose of life is whatever you want it to be? sorry you're going to have to do betteer than that. Suppose I want my purpose to be a seriel killer?

The science of psychology to work out, your mind would be unable to cope or do any of these things.


Faith matters

“…evolution answers only why am I homo sapien, i.e. bipedal, why we have a certain sized brain etc... it still doesn't answer WHY we are here…” (my emphasis)

That depends on what sort of “WHY” you are referring to.

http://www.answers.com/topic/why


“…For what purpose, reason, or CAUSE; with what intention, justification, or motive:…” (my emphasis)

-so one possible meaning is the “CAUSE” of something and evolution is a cause of something.

“…The purpose of life is whatever you want it to be? sorry you're going to have to do betteer than that. Suppose I want my purpose to be a seriel killer?...”

Then, for you, the purpose of your life would be to be a serial killer –sick but true 🙁

“….The science of psychology, etc... cannot MAKE us happy….” (my emphasis)

Perhaps not. But the question you put was NOT what can MAKE us happy but WHY are you unhappy. Reminder of question you put: “…WHY am I unhappy?”
You also asked; “..How can I be happy?...”. well, psychiatry might or might not help here depending on the cause of your unhappiness and whether there is currently an effective treatment.

“…They lack purpose and are unable to articulate the source of their malaize. Frued himself acknowledged the role of religion in easing, mitigating, and even reversing this phenomenon…”

The science of psychology has progressed and moved on since Frued’s time and Freudian explanations are generally no longer considered valid in modern psychology. Religion is not generally used to treat depression/unhappiness in modern psychiatry nor is considered appropriate/effective.

“…What assurance do you have that the world will not be crushed by a meteor today?...”

Killer meteors able to cause global disaster occur only about once every ten million years or more so the chances of one being due today are small. Also, if one was going to occur today then it would have been spotted coming months ago and we would all know about it because it would be global news I think it would be very hard to cover-up something like that!

“…How do you know that you won't be struck by lightning as you step outside?...”

I don’t but this is unlikely thus I am not made unhappy by the possibility.

“…you don't, yet you get up everyday, and head out into the world. you work, live, laugh, play, dream, and plan for a future that you are not promised. Without some level of faith that things are going to work out, your mind would be unable to cope or do any of these things….”

I am living proof to the contrary –no faith AND I DO cope! –I fail to see why it is so difficult. I don’t need faith to estimate the chances of my life ending today or the world ending today being extremely small –just knowing it is extremely small is reassurance enough for me. BUT even if I KNEW I was going to die today, I wouldn’t mysteriously turn all religious as if that helps. I would not wish to warp my mind to delude myself and enter a pure fantasy land to hide harsh reality from myself even if I could (which I can’t ) but rather I would wish and hope to be brave and strong enough to face-up to harsh reality even if that means acknowledging my demise.

OH, and Faith sucks.

Originally posted by pink floyd123
dose any one think or feel that sci will one day uncover the fact that there is a god and that the universe was created by him or will it find that there is no god what are your thoughts

Even if Science one day could prove there is a God, people still would not believe.

Originally posted by RBHILL
Even if Science one day could prove there is a God, people still would not believe.

What do mean? Of course people would believe! If, somehow (god knows how –no pun intended), science proves there is a God, then God would become a scientific fact just like any other scientific fact! It would just become a part of accepted science.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
What do mean? Of course people would believe! If, somehow (god knows how –no pun intended), science proves there is a God, then God would become a scientific fact just like any other scientific fact! It would just become a part of accepted science.

No, they wouldn't. They didn't believe in Jesus when he was hear.

But truly science as already proved there is a God, you just are blinded by satan.

Originally posted by RBHILL
No, they wouldn't. They didn't believe in Jesus when he was hear.

But truly science as already proved there is a God, you just are blinded by satan.

“…No, they wouldn't….”

Who are “they”?
“they” would, just for starters, not include me. If science proves something then I would just accept that proof as proof; even if that proof is of the existence of a God (somehow ), no problem.

“…But truly science as already proved there is a God,…”

What? Strange I have never heard of this. So where is this scientific proof of the existence of God? –I have never seen it! If I ever see proof then I will believe.

“…you just are blinded by satan….”

He doesn’t exist. But, if he did, does he “blind” us by allowing us to go wherever logic and evidence points?