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19 Aug 17
Eladar, I have a question for you about authority.
Take a couple of Christian men who do not allow any women to exercise authority over them. They prepare well written sermons which they deliver week by week. They have titles and unusual garb which designates them as professional spiritual people. They are called by others "Reverend So and So" and "Pastor So and So". They are just oozing with authority.
But strangely they can't seem to petition God in prayer so as to touch His throne to move.
Then you have a couple of Christian sisters. No body listens to them particularly.
No one sits under their teaching much. But they so live so as to be able to effectively pray. Their prayers are in harmony, in one accord, and move the hand of God over people's lives.
Which of these two do you think exercises more spiritual authority before God ?
The brothers who are so busy vying with each other for turf and position that they cannot get a prayer through, who, incidentally would never allow a woman to teach them or have authority over them, OR the two sister Christians who have found the secret to petition God in prayer effectively so as to move His hand ?
Which case has the more effective spiritual authority for the Christian church ?
19 Aug 17
Originally posted by @sonshipLooks like none of the above.
Eladar, I have a question for you about authority.
Take a couple of Christian men who do not allow any women to exercise authority over them. They prepare well written sermons which they deliver week by week. They have titles and unusual garb which designates them as professional spiritual people. They are called by others "Reverend So and So" and "Pa ...[text shortened]... ?
Which case has the more [b] effective spiritual authority for the Christian church ?[/b]
19 Aug 17
Originally posted by @eladarNot worshipping the words of the Bible and, instead, worshipping the Living God, must seem very strange to you.
Yeah I know. Actually believing what the Bible actually says must seem very strange to you.
19 Aug 17
Originally posted by @sonshipHe recognizes no authority except himself.
Eladar, I have a question for you about authority.
Take a couple of Christian men who do not allow any women to exercise authority over them. They prepare well written sermons which they deliver week by week. They have titles and unusual garb which designates them as professional spiritual people. They are called by others "Reverend So and So" and "Pa ...[text shortened]... ?
Which case has the more [b] effective spiritual authority for the Christian church ?[/b]
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20 Aug 17
1 edit
Originally posted by @eladarNo, it looks like those whose prayers can be effective are more useful to God's work.
Looks like none of the above.
A lot of accolades, titles, positions, Reverend, Right Reverend, etc. etc. are what too many Christians assume are indications of spiritual authority.
The un-scriptural clergy / laity system has deceived many into assuming there is authority to be envied in those with a clerical class designation.
Because of envy for "authority" in the clergy laity system some men have a vain positional authority that they protect. And some covetous sisters long to have clerical collars and titles like the men.
It is more crucial to God's operation that men and women live such lives in Christ that their petitions are heard and answered by God. These praying ones needed to actually move forward God's will on the earth.
I was brought to Christ through the effective prevailing prayers of a elderly sister. I had no earthly intention to follow Jesus. Her prayers for me were powerful and authoritative.
Though brother Paul may have instructed Timothy that he did not allow a sister to exercise teaching authority over a man, he put no stipulation of anyone, sister or brother, being powerful in their prayers to move the hand of God.
Do you realize what it means to a family, a town, a city, or a country to have Christians who are able to exercise the authority of effective prayers to God ?
I am not a woman. But if I was, knowing the Bible as I do, I would say - "you keep your position, title, and platform to instruct. Just let the Holy Spirit endow me with the ministry of effective petitioning of the throne of God. And I have no need to envy anyone."
20 Aug 17
Originally posted by @sonshipSo how do you know whose prayers are effective?
No, it looks like those whose prayers can be effective are more useful to God's work.
A lot of accolades, titles, positions, Reverend, Right Reverend, etc. etc. are what too many Christians assume are indications of spiritual authority.
The un-scriptural clergy / laity system has deceived many into assuming there is authority to be envied in t ...[text shortened]... the ministry of effective petitioning of the throne of God. And I have no need to envy anyone."
In any case, God tells us that no woman is to have authority over men, at least within the church.
Ignore it, as well as many other things in the Bible at tour soul's risk.
There, you have been warned.
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20 Aug 17
2 edits
Brother Watchman Nee seemed to see ground in the New Testament for women apostles.
From - "The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee,
messages given written under the title Concerning Our Mission in 1933.
My bolding.
WOMEN APOSTLES
Have women any place among the ranks of the apostles? Scripture indicates that they have. There were no women among the twelve sent forth by the Lord, but a woman is mentioned among the number of the apostles who were sent forth by the Spirit after the Lord’s ascension. Romans 16:7 speaks of two notable apostles, Andronicus and Junia, and good authorities agree that “Junia” is a woman’s name. So here we have a sister as an apostle and a notable apostle at that.
(The Normal Christian Church Life, Chapter 1, Section 6)
In the Word of God we find numerous other apostles besides Barnabas and Paul. There are many belonging to the new order chosen and sent forth by the Spirit of God. In 1 Corinthians 4:9 we read, "God has set forth us the apostles last." To whom do the words "us the apostles" refer? The pronoun "us" implies that there was at least one other apostle besides the writer. If we study the context, we note that Apollos was with Paul when he wrote (v. 6), and Sosthenes was a joint writer with Paul of the Epistle. So it seems clear that the "us" here refers either to Apollos or to Sosthenes, or to both. It follows then that either or both of these two must have been apostles.
Romans 16:7: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles." The clause "who are of note among the apostles" does not mean that they were regarded as notable by the apostles, but rather that among the apostles they were notable ones. Here we have not only another two apostles, but another two notable apostles.
see http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
20 Aug 17
Originally posted by @sonshipHeretics are allowed to believe what they want to believe. They simply can't expect others to believe them.
Brother Watchman Nee seemed to see ground in the New Testament for women apostles.
From - [b]"The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee,
messages given written under the title Concerning Our Mission in 1933.
My bolding.
WOMEN APOSTLES
Have women any place among the ranks of the apostles? Scripture indicates ...[text shortened]... es, but another two notable apostles.
see http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n[/b]
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20 Aug 17
1 edit
Originally posted by @eladarIf you cannot IDENTIFY specifically the heresy, then your name calling is juvenile, pointless, and vain.
Heretics are allowed to believe what they want to believe. They simply can't expect others to believe them.
IDENTIFY specifically the heresy.
"Well, I don't agree" is not good enough.
Where is the heretical teaching that I put forth ?
Your next post to me should unambiguously specify the heretical teaching.
Grumblings that you see things differently don't justify the description of heresy.
20 Aug 17
Originally posted by @sonshipYou have a heretical view of what the Bible states.
If you cannot IDENTIFY specifically the heresy, then your name calling is juvenile, pointless, and vain.
IDENTIFY specifically the heresy.
"Well, I don't agree" is not good enough.
Where is the heretical teaching that I put forth ?
Your next post to me should [b] unambiguously specify the heretical teaching.
Grumblings that you see things differently don't justify the description of heresy. [/b]
You claim that this female is on par with the 12. You claim that she had authority over men.
None of this is in the Bible.
You are a liberal heretic who has been warned. You are without excuse.
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20 Aug 17
Originally posted by @eladarI disagree, I think you are mistaken about the verse in question in 1 Timothy. God did not make woman to be slaves for men, but to be companions. It is absurd that woman cannot teach, I have heard wonderful and inspiring teaching from woman.
You have a heretical view of what the Bible states.
You claim that this female is on par with the 12. You claim that she had authority over men.
None of this is in the Bible.
You are a liberal heretic who has been warned. You are without excuse.
Here is a helpful commentary....
Commentary for: 1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach that she is the originator of man, rather she is not to cause a disturbance.
“I do not.” In explaining this verse, it is important to note that more literature has been written on 1 Tim. 2:11-12 in recent years than on any other passage in the Pauline Epistles (Word Biblical Commentary: Pastoral Epistles, p. 117 ). If anything, this should alert us to the fact that the standard orthodox translation, that women should not teach men and should be silent in the Church, is not something the Greek text clearly says. There are well known and highly educated scholars who take totally different positions on how these verses are to be translated and interpreted. Also, the fact that there is so much disagreement about these verses shows us that no interpretation is free of problems: there is no “easy translation and clear meaning” of this passage of Scripture. There is no interpretation posited by any scholar that has not been criticized by other scholars who take opposing viewpoints, and we realize that not everyone will agree with our interpretation of this verse, but we set it forth as the best explanation we know.
The best answer we have found to the difficult grammar and the difficult context of 1 Timothy 2:12 are solutions set forth in works such as I Suffer Not a Woman by Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger, and The Source New Testament (text and notes) by Dr. A. Nyland. Although the Clark Kroegers offer several translations (pp. 103, 191, 192), and these differ from Nyland’s translation, the gist is the same. Paul was writing to Timothy, who was based in Ephesus. Between some types of Gnostic doctrine, and some of the types of the “mother goddess” worship of Asia Minor, it was being taught in the culture surrounding Timothy that a female god created Eve before Adam, or that God created Eve before Adam. It is typical of converts to Christianity that they blend Christian beliefs with their past pagan beliefs (this is referred to by scholars as syncretism, and is how orthodox Christianity picked up many of its modern beliefs and practices, such as “Easter Sunday”. Syncretism could have certainly been occurring in Ephesus, and would have been a very important reason why Paul would tell the women to learn, but forbid them from teaching things from their pagan past such as that a woman was the origin of men.
Added to the above historical context is that authenteĊ can mean “originator” or “author,” and when linked to the word “teach,” can refer to a person teaching that woman is the originator of man. The translation given by the Clark Kroegers that they feel is the most likely is: “I do not allow a woman to teach nor to proclaim herself author of man” (p. 103, 192). However, they also say the verse could be translated: “I do not permit a woman to teach that she is the originator of man...” (p. 191), or “I categorically forbid a woman to teach [anyone] to maintain that she is responsible for the origin of man” (p. 192). Nyland translates the verse: “I most certainly do not grant authority to a woman to teach that she is the originator of man....”
Given the historical context of 1 Timothy, the difficult vocabulary and grammar of the verse, and the “reason” for the verse in the first place, which is 1 Tim. 2:13-14, we felt that the best understanding of 1 Timothy 2:12 was the general understanding of Nyland and the Clark Kroegers, that Paul was forbidding women to claim feminine origin of man [For more information and full commentary on this verse, see Appendix 12: “The Role of Women In The Church”.]
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/1-Timothy/chapter2/12