Spirituality
21 Dec 08
22 Dec 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterNot necessarily. I've known people who drink waayyyyy to excess and have never been violent, and are healthy as a horse. Granted, drinking, like smoking, tends to be harmful to one's health--but it's not harmful to everyone's health.
It would still be a sin to practice it, just as it is a sin to drink to excess even if you are genetically predisposed to do so.---floyd------
So how might such a sin be overcome?
Also it's obvious that drinking excessively is harmful and leads to violence and ill health. I don't see how two men making love harms anyone.
22 Dec 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydWhat do you call 'waayyyyy to excess' ?
Not necessarily. I've known people who drink waayyyyy to excess and have never been violent, and are healthy as a horse. Granted, drinking, like smoking, tends to be harmful to one's health--but it's not harmful to everyone's health.
Actually the Bible and health professionals recommend moderate drinking. Nobody recommends smoking moderate or otherwise.
23 Dec 08
Let’s see here: KM and Epi and me (albeit not a Christian; but I have done some OT exegesis on this) all three of us in agreement at once…
Let’s see: KM and Epi and me—all three of us in agreement, on the same side, so to speak…
There must be some new dispensation going on here (there must be some Talmudic discourse on this)…
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Good thread, KM. Well presented. Perhaps the best-presented thread on this issue yet! .
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasKudos, Epi. I wish I still had recs to give. There is nothing that I can say that wouldn’t sound shallow in comparison to what you have said here.
I don't see where the Bible explicitly condemns all homosexuals. In fact, the word "homosexual" is a mistranslation - the correct translation should read "sodomite", e.g., 1 Corinthians 6:9, and sodomites are a class unto themselves. Have you ever heard of a gang of gay folks gathering outside of someone's door demanding they be allowed to rape ...[text shortened]... s a ridiculous notion to think that all of God's creatures are created equal.
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydBut the point is that there is at least a causal link between drinking and ill health (mental and physical) as well as proven links to social violence and disorder.
Not necessarily. I've known people who drink waayyyyy to excess and have never been violent, and are healthy as a horse. Granted, drinking, like smoking, tends to be harmful to one's health--but it's not harmful to everyone's health.
Even if the Bible said that drinking was holy and good we would be right to question the sanity of any scripture like that because it would run counter to all common sense. Such a scriptural statement would be swimming against a tide of rationality and moral/social awareness.
The point I am trying to make is that things are not "sins" for arbitary reasons , they are declared sins because God is saying it is harmful for us as well as morally wrong. With a sin like drinking ( and many other sins) the reason why it is declared a sin is not that hard to figure out. With homosexuality I'm not at all clear what harm it actually does.
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by whodeyMy point was, if you are then going to take one of them and say that it should no longer be a sin as opposed to the other, you must state why. -----whodey-------------------
The ONLY comparison I made between homosexuality and promiscuity was that they are both labeled as sin Biblically. My point was, if you are then going to take one of them and say that it should no longer be a sin as opposed to the other, you must state why.
I think you have stated this when you say that promiscuity should remain a sin because it has the p ...[text shortened]... e apostle Paul forewarns about so as to not lead others potentially astray if you are not sure.
Because promiscuity devalues the sexual act and supports the philosophy of shallow relationships where sex is divorced from committment. As such there is a good reason why it is in there. Scripture on homosexuality is likely to have been inspired by homophobic attitudes just as much as spiritural concerns , and as such we should be highly suspicious of such scripture.
You have also as yet been unable to provide any reason why you think homosexuality is a sin other than "it's in the Bible so it must be ". You are unable to say why it is though.
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by Conrau KNo doubt there may be genetic explanations for promiscuity, bisexuality, pedophilia, sexual aggression (such as rape) and whatever.--------conrau---------------
Actually, he didn't. He used analogies to illustrate a point: genetic disposition to any sexual behaviour is not a justification for that sexual behaviour. No doubt there may be genetic explanations for promiscuity, bisexuality, pedophilia, sexual aggression (such as rape) and whatever. This is not to say that homosexuality is on par with sexual promiscuity ...[text shortened]... trating that there might be a biological basis for sexuality is not a moral argument in itself.
And some of the above are harmful to others and some may not be. If a man has pedophile tendencies then I fully support the idea that he should train himself to reel in these tendencies. The reason for this is because he will harm others and ultimately himself if he does not.
No-one has yet been able to explain why a committed ,loving homosexual relationship is harnful. One could argue it is beneficial.
23 Dec 08
3 edits
Originally posted by whodeyI really think you need to be more careful and more aware of what you are feeling. Are you really saying that those feelings are the same? You obviously had a response of moral disgust and outrage regarding the holocaust - but the difference is that you are able to back up these feelings in your conscience with a rational argument as to why the holocaust is wrong.
Be careful now. I got a similar feeling when watching films about the Holocaust. Had you considered the possibility that the feelings that produce revulsion is part of our innate conscience that warns us good from bad?
You cannot do the same with your feelings regarding homosexuality. You find it repulsive but are these feelings from your conscience? Would you weep in moral outrage regarding homosexuality? Who exactly is being hurt when two committed , loving homosexuals make love? Can you really compare it to the gas chambers? Personally if I get a strong emotional moral response to something but I can find nothing in my rationale to back it up - I get very suspicious about where that response is coming from. Crude and primitive racial tensions and feelings can be turned into theology (KKK). Any strong feeling can be taken and turned into a theology. Anger , revenge , territorial concerns , why not sexual revulsion? I have already said that two men kissing makes me feel a bit queezy , but I know these feelings have nothing to do with my moral compass. They occurr because I am heterosexual - if I wasn't I would not get those feelings.
Do you think it's possible that feelings of moral disgust can feel very similar to biological/primitive feelings of revulsion ? Is it possible to get the two confused?
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by divegeesterIt was possibly a tired over reaction. There are some timewasters around here , you might not be one of them. I just don't want to tap my fingers on this keyboard constructing an argument only to find the other person has no interest in real debate or getting to the heart of the issue.
Hi KM.
Not sure what you are driving at by this post. The "few good men" thing was humour in another thread already containing humourous posts, and was obviously a "rip-off" as I pasted the script from the film and changed a few words for an effect! Not sure what has jogged you into this challenge of my integrity this thread, but obviously someth ...[text shortened]... said that is specifically offensive then I will consider retracting it.
Regards,
DG
You have not been offensive - please continue with your point.
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by whodeyI know of many families that have been devastated by loved ones who venture into that life style.____whodey______
You say this as if NO homosexual unions have not caused unrest or fragmented society, however, is this the case? I know of many families that have been devastated by loved ones who venture into that life style. In fact, is society not fragmented over the issue as we speak? In addition, I have heard some of my gay friends say how much more promiscuous the g ...[text shortened]... cares what I think or what others think? The one you want to be sure about is what God thinks.
What probably happens is that because homosexuality is not accepted many have tried to pretend they were straight and get married in the normal way only to revert to type and come out courageously thus causing obvious distress to the family involved.
So what caused that problem ? Homosexuality or homophobia?
The fact that you think someone would willingly "venture into that lifestyle" shows how uninformed you are on this. The fact that you have a gay friend who wishes he were straight tells us nothing really. I have no problem accepting the idea that homosexuality might be a sexual dysfunction of some kind that occurs throughout nature. If this is true then there will be some who wish they had not been born this way and others who just embrace it , if so what's your point?
You have still yet to explain why the simple fact of practicing a homosexual relationship is harmful . What you have proved is that anything in and of itself can be harmful if practcied in a certain way. Hetersexuality can be harmful , ambition can be , religion can be , metal can be harmful (if turned into guns) , so can nuclear fusion etc etc , all are subject to misuse or can create harm. But we all know this anyway , metal is not sinful , neither is heterosexuality or homosexuality - but violence , murder , promiscuity , lying , rape etc etc - these are harmful because they make use of the other things and create harm.
It may or may not be true that the gay lifestyle is more promiscuous than the heterosexual lifestyle but there could be all sorts of reasons for this totally unconnected to sexuality. A person who has the courage to come out and resist social norms is more likely to reject social norms around relationships. They are also likely to have experienced deep confusion about their sexuality at some point (due to social rejection) and so might take much longer to establish committed relationships. In any case it's not as if the heterosexaul world is free of promiscuity.
Since ultimately you have no idea what God thinks about intersex individuals or hermaphrodites we can assume that those who have this biological "condition" are free to practice sex with other individuals and it will not be considered an abomination or a sin. The Bible says nothing about it , so unless we can find a reason why we should label it a sin then two individuals like these can just go for it?
Let me paint a scenario , an intersex adult who has a feminised brain but both genitals (so is "camp" and feminine despite having no breasts and male features) but also his/her DNA would show up as female but they would have no ovaries. They meet a similar individual who has male genitalia but their p+++s looks more like a large c++++oris and they have a v++gina of sorts. If they were to practice sex and the way they felt comfortable about it was to touch each other's p+++s 's , would this be an abomination?
My view would be that even though this act would have many similarities with gay sex between two men , it would be Ok with God because he would understand that these people were expressing their love in the best way their bodies allowed them to. Since God has allowed this confused world of sexual orientation / dysfunction to exist in the first place and has not prohibited it in the Bible I would argue that as long as it was not harmful it would be Ok. Would you agree?
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterThanks KM.
It was possibly a tired over reaction. There are some timewasters around here , you might not be one of them. I just don't want to tap my fingers on this keyboard constructing an argument only to find the other person has no interest in real debate or getting to the heart of the issue.
You have not been offensive - please continue with your point.
My posts on page two read from different tones only because I was avoiding trying to get into the temporal morality of the point in question, i.e homosexuality, both male and female. I was avoiding it out of a mixture of experience in debating this topic, and frankly cowardice at attempting to get involved! It's an emotive subject.
Post one was to this point and answering the question from a purely literal letter of the law biblical viewpoint, i.e homosexuality like all sin, is wrong in God's eyes. Although challenging, I believe should be the start point when addressing the topic from a Christian viewpoint.
My second post was a (rhetorical) aknowlegement that although I am not homosexual, I recognise from my own life that the sinfull nature is powerfull, inherent in us all and universally dependent on God's grace through repentance. I thought my first post didn't read well and sounded harsh and uncaring.
Forum posts are like email - easily missinterpreted, but also easily overblown!
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by divegeesterI have had experience of emails being misunderstood. Fair enough. I'll give you a clean slate and we can start again.
Thanks KM.
My posts on page two read from different tones only because I was avoiding trying to get into the temporal morality of the point in question, i.e homosexuality, both male and female. I was avoiding it out of a mixture of experience in debating this topic, and frankly cowardice at attempting to get involved! It's an emotive subject.
Po ...[text shortened]... ncaring.
Forum posts are like email - easily missinterpreted, but also easily overblown!
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by Rajk999I am aware of the health benefits of occasional use of spirits.
[b]What do you call 'waayyyyy to excess' ?
I call a case of beer a day excessive.
I call falling-down, can't walk a straight line, slurry speech, "I love you man" drunk excessive.
What do [you] call excessive?
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterI see your point. Some of the other sins named, particularly in the OT, are difficult to understand. Why was it so bad for Noah's son to see him passed out drunk & naked? Why was Onan cut down for "spilling his seed" where he did? And then there's the whole thing in the NT about "sins of omission". I've asked my pastor several times why we are held accountable for things we do that we aren't even aware are sins!
But the point is that there is at least a causal link between drinking and ill health (mental and physical) as well as proven links to social violence and disorder.
Even if the Bible said that drinking was holy and good we would be right to question the sanity of any scripture like that because it would run counter to all common sense. Such a scri ...[text shortened]... that hard to figure out. With homosexuality I'm not at all clear what harm it actually does.
I will have to cogitate further...
23 Dec 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydFurthing this thought:
I see your point. Some of the other sins named, particularly in the OT, are difficult to understand. Why was it so bad for Noah's son to see him passed out drunk & naked? Why was Onan cut down for "spilling his seed" where he did? And then there's the whole thing in the NT about "sins of omission". I've asked my pastor several times why we are held ac ...[text shortened]... r things we do that we aren't even aware are sins!
I will have to cogitate further...
Righteousness is not dependant on it's interpretation nor the approval of either the beholder or its exponent; it is dependent on faith and obedience; Abraham being the obvious example.
Similarly unrightousness is not dependant on our comprehension of it. Ir can be as inocuous as disobedience to a simple command of God, or as simple as acting in a forbiden way e.g homosexuality or adultery or witchcraft or fornication or whatever...
The difficulty is that in spiritual terms we are children, and children often have to respect thier parents authority and wisdom without fully undestanding why - but they do out of love and trust.
However we think we are adults we have had our "eyes opened" and enjoy making our own decisions of right and wrong. Where there is no apparent harm to us we may feel we are right to challenge God's judgement in the matter.