Spirituality
10 Nov 19
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11 Nov 19
@deepthought saidYes, I agree with this. I show courtesy to anybody I come into contact with (open the door for a stranger etc) but respect is something I have for people who warrant it. (The threshold is quite low for this transition).
We treat people well because they may deserve respect. Behaving courteously towards someone is not the same as having respect for them. It is normal to defer judgement until sufficient evidence is available. If one does not feel respect for someone then not spending time with them is indicated. If they intrude on that then discourtesy is a suitable deterrent.
I would point out however that I still show courtesy to individuals I don't have respect for.
11 Nov 19
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
@KellyJay
Sure, people aren't static things. They may not deserve respect now, but this can change in the future. So courtesy helps us to set a good example to them and avoids telling them: "You are a worthless individual and never will be anything else.".
11 Nov 19
@kellyjay saidPeople of faith should have some respect given we are all made in the image of God.
You believe that there is a level of respect or dignity owed to all regardless, simply for being a person?
As for those not of faith, the value of a person seems to stem from how intelligent they are or how much money they make. That is why we see countries like Iceland aborting all babies with Downs. For them, we are all just glorified animals and not made in the image of God, so we can treat intellectually inferior humans like we do animals.
12 Nov 19
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidJust so I know and don't assume the wrong thing. When you show courtesy are you not showing respect simply due to the fact it is another person, regardless of their 'worth or measure' in your eyes. Which I admire about you so you know when done.
Yes, I agree with this. I show courtesy to anybody I come into contact with (open the door for a stranger etc) but respect is something I have for people who warrant it. (The threshold is quite low for this transition).
I would point out however that I still show courtesy to individuals I don't have respect for.
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12 Nov 19
@kellyjay saidCourtesy and respect are certainly cousins, but I still differentiate between the two. I wouldn't, for example, automatically give respect to someone I had never met before. (But please note, this does not mean I would be disrespectful). I give respect to someone who has already demonstrated they are worthy of my respect. (Think of 'respect' being in the same category as 'love.' ) - Courtesy is a 'polite kindness' that I would give to someone I have never met before, and like I say, It wouldn't take much for that courtesy to move towards respect.
Just so I know and don't assume the wrong thing. When you show courtesy are you not showing respect simply due to the fact it is another person, regardless of their 'worth or measure' in your eyes. Which I admire about you so you know.
12 Nov 19
2 edits
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think the way the word "respect" by the way people are using it sounds more like “admire” to me, it is as if there is something about them that makes them worthy of it. I agree with your assessment about courtesy and respect being cousins and “admire” is part of that family as well; being respectful, in my opinion, is how I behave towards another, not that they deserve it. That point isn't the point I wanted to discuss, so I choose my words poorly.
Courtesy and respect are certainly cousins, but I still differentiate between the two. I wouldn't, for example, automatically give respect to someone I had never met before. (But please note, this does not mean I would be disrespectful). I give respect to someone who has already demonstrated they are worthy of my respect. (Think of 'respect' being in the same category ...[text shortened]... e never met before, and like I say, It wouldn't take much for that courtesy to move towards respect.
12 Nov 19
@deepthought saidThe thing about looking at people they way you just described it, no one would then be worthy of real deserved respect based just on who they are. It would always fall out on their current actions if only merit causes them to be worthy of being shown respect. That would forever make it all merit dependent, and it would cut both ways, the worthy today could be unworthy tomorrow, or this afternoon and the unworthy today could fall out the same way.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
@KellyJay
Sure, people aren't static things. They may not deserve respect now, but this can change in the future. So courtesy helps us to set a good example to them and avoids telling them: "You are a worthless individual and never will be anything else.".
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12 Nov 19
@kellyjay saidIf I meet a stranger, I do not know if they are somebody who works for a charity or somebody who enjoys hurting animals. (For example). Therefore, to approach them both with respect doesn't sit right with me. You could say I 'withhold' judgment. The charity worker I'm sure would very quickly earn my respect, while the other chap would not.
I think the way the word "respect" by the way people are using it sounds more like “admire” to me, it is as if there is something about them that makes them worthy of it. I agree with your assessment about courtesy and respect being cousins and “admire” is part of that family as well; being respectful, in my opinion, is how I behave towards another, not that they deserve it. That point isn't the point I wanted to discuss, so I choose my words poorly.
The same applies to 'love.' I do not love my neighbour. I love my family and friends. Indeed, to love my neighbour would dilute the importance and significance of love.
12 Nov 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think that loving our neighbor isn't understood by the vast majority; it isn't having loving feelings towards all others. Not even with our better halves can we always maintain romantic feelings all the time, that doesn't mean we don't love them. Emotions are real but fleeting, they come and go, real love doesn't.
If I meet a stranger, I do not know if they are somebody who works for a charity or somebody who enjoys hurting animals. (For example). Therefore, to approach them both with respect doesn't sit right with me. You could say I 'withhold' judgment. The charity worker I'm sure would very quickly earn my respect, while the other chap would not.
The same applies to 'love ...[text shortened]... mily and friends. Indeed, to love my neighbour would dilute the importance and significance of love.
It is a commitment to do right by them; even when we see them as they are flaws and all, we are to still do right by them, as God does us. While we were yet sinners was His love expressed towards us in Christ coming to die for us. That is seeing the unlovely and showing love, seeing all the flaws, and with eyes wide open loving anyway. If we turn love into a merit thing, is it love, or more of a desire to get what we want out of others that have to measure up.
I get what you are saying about those who have flaws like harming animals or people for the pleasure they get out of it. Those that do those things are not loving anyone, and why repentance is a requirement. No one should walk up to a child molester and say we love just as you are! They are behaving as the most grotesque selfish people there are, why? They are treating others as objects for their pleasure for consumption to get something out of another reducing the personhood of those they were able to soil by their actions. Repentance is a requirement for those types of things; we are to turn away from those things that are not loving into those that are.
When we do treat those you don’t know as people with dignity and respect, we are showing love to them, respecting the boundaries of their person and possessions is loving them. Selecting those we like and dislike for our good behavior and favor is still a merit-based system based on our selfishness.
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12 Nov 19
@kellyjay saidI think Christianity waters down love so that it loses its potency.
I think that loving our neighbor isn't understood by the vast majority; it isn't having loving feelings towards all others. Not even with our better halves can we always maintain romantic feelings all the time, that doesn't mean we don't love them. Emotions are real but fleeting, they come and go, real love doesn't.
It is a commitment to do right by them; even when we se ...[text shortened]... and dislike for our good behavior and favor is still a merit-based system based on our selfishness.
I agree that we should do right by people. But that isn't love.
12 Nov 19
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhy would our doing right by people not be love? You think feeding the hungry isn't love, clothing those in need isn't love, taking care of the sick isn't love. Love doesn't lose its potency by Christianity, what belittles love is our notion that only the worthy of us should receive it from us.
I think Christianity waters down love so that it loses its potency.
I agree that we should do right by people. But that isn't love.
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12 Nov 19
1 edit
@kellyjay saidLove is an intense feeling of deep affection. or a great interest or pleasure.
Why would our doing right by people not be love? You think feeding the hungry isn't love, clothing those in need isn't love, taking care of the sick isn't love. Love doesn't lose its potency by Christianity, what belittles love is our notion that only the worthy of us should receive it from us.
None of the things you listed meet this commonly accepted definition of love.
(I don't equate kindness with love. They are seperate).
12 Nov 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhich is why I think our race is so screwed up, we think it is all about us and not the others.
Love is an intense feeling of deep affection. or a great interest or pleasure.
None of the things you listed meet this commonly accepted definition of love.
(I don't equate kindness with love. They are seperate).
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12 Nov 19
@kellyjay saidAgain you jump to conclusions. I think being kind to one another is very important. I just don't conflate it with love.
Which is why I think our race is so screwed up, we think it is all about us and not the others.
If a neighbour came to you and asked for 40,000 pounds for a life-saving operation, you wouldn't give it to him. Why? Because kindness has limits. - Now, if someone you truly loved came to you with the same request, it would be a different outcome.
Tell me I am wrong.
12 Nov 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWe are linked together, and if I could meet a life-saving need should I? What is love if it isn't taking care of others as we can? I cannot do everything for everyone, but with what I have, am I doing what I can with my limited means? No greater love than this, is to lay down our lives for another, does that sound like 'limits' to you? Measuring up someone to see if they are worthy of our help isn’t a feature of love, making sure what we do is helping them should be, but nowhere in scripture do we hear only help those you find worthy, that is only found within the natural man’s selfish desire to protect its own.
Again you jump to conclusions. I think being kind to one another is very important. I just don't conflate it with love.
If a neighbour came to you and asked for 40,000 pounds for a life-saving operation, you wouldn't give it to him. Why? Because kindness has limits. - Now, if someone you truly loved came to you with the same request, it would be a different outcome.
Tell me I am wrong.
With respect to your question the outcome would be no different, if I could why wouldn't I? You can be kind and uncaring, you cannot love and not care. A world full of kind doesn't mean it is a caring one, a world full of love would be.